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Morag Gamble:

Welcome to the Sense-Making in a Changing World Podcast, where we explore the kind of thinking we need to navigate a positive way forward. I’m your host Morag Gamble, permaculture educator, and global ambassador, filmmaker, eco villager, food forester, mother, practivist and all-around lover of thinking, communicating and acting regeneratively. For a long time it’s been clear to me that to shift trajectory to a thriving one planet way of life, we first need to shift our thinking. The way we perceive ourselves in relation to nature, self, and community is the core. So this is true now more than ever and even the way change is changing, is changing. Unprecedented changes are happening all around us at a rapid pace. So how do we make sense of this? To know which way to turn, to know what action to focus on, so our efforts are worthwhile and nourishing and are working towards resilience, regeneration, and reconnection? What better way to make sense than to join together with others in open generative conversation.

In this podcast, I’ll share conversations with my friends and colleagues, people who inspire and challenge me in their ways of thinking, connecting and acting. These wonderful people are thinkers, doers, activists, scholars, writers, leaders, farmers, educators, people whose work informs permaculture and spark the imagination of what a post-COVID, climate-resilient, socially just future could look like. Their ideas and projects help us to make sense in this changing world to compost and digest the ideas and to nurture the fertile ground for new ideas, connections and actions. Together we’ll open up conversations in the world of permaculture design, regenerative thinking, community action, earth repair, eco-literacy, and much more. I can’t wait to share these conversations with you.

Over the last three decades of personally making sense of the multiple crises we face. I always returned to the practical and positive world of permaculture with its ethics of earth care, people care and fair share. I’ve seen firsthand how adaptable and responsive it can be in all contexts from urban to rural, from refugee camps to suburbs. It helps people make sense of what’s happening around them and to learn accessible design tools, to shape their habitat positively and to contribute to cultural and ecological regeneration. This is why I’ve created the permaculture educators program to help thousands of people to become permaculture teachers everywhere through an interactive online jewel certificate of permaculture design and teaching. We sponsor global PERMA youth programs. Women’s self-help groups in the global south and teens in refugee camps. So anyway, this podcast is sponsored by the permaculture education Institute and our permaculture educators program. If you’d like to find more about permaculture, I’ve created a four-part permaculture video series to explain what permaculture is and also how you can make it your livelihood as well as your way of life. We’d love to invite you to join a wonderfully inspiring, friendly, and supportive global learning community. So I welcome you to share each of these conversations, and I’d also like to suggest you create a local conversation circle to explore the ideas shared in each show and discuss together how this makes sense in your local community and environment. I’d like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land in which I meet and speak with you today, the Gubbi Gubbi people and pay my respects to their elders past, present and emerging.

In this episode of sense-making in a changing world, I’m talking with someone who’s been living and working entirely in the permaculture world for over three decades. His work in Nepal is inspirational and has influenced many programs globally. He fell in love with Nepal way back in 1985 when he was living there as a volunteer for community forestry programs. But he realized soon that international development models weren’t actually working. That’s when he discovered permaculture and enrolled himself in a permaculture design course with Bill Mollison. And since then, he’s helped to adapt permaculture to the Himalayan context and brought learning opportunities to thousands of small farms, creating demonstration centers, local curriculum and resources, school programs, leading permaculture courses, training the trainer courses, and also helping with the establishment of barefoot trainers who go as needed to the villages to help build resilience in farming communities. He says himself that he’s actually not driving this. He just offers advice as needed and helps to do international networking that this is actually a self-directed program. And it’s absolutely wonderful. I’m so thrilled to welcome to the show, Chris Evans, who I met 25 years ago together with his partner, Looby Macnamara. Who’s also been a guest of this show, and his daughters Shanti and Teya. They started the Applewood Permaculture Centre in England on the Welsh border. I was so thrilled to visit them there back in 2019 before COVID hit, to catch up and also to spend this time with him today to really dive more deeply into the work that he does in permaculture development. So many valuable lessons in this conversation. I hope you enjoy it just as much as I did. Well, thank you so much for joining me on the show today, Chris, it’s an absolute delight to have you here. I think , our work has kind of been in similar places, obviously within permaculture for, for a very long time. And we met first. Oh my gosh. Was it in Perth? Did you come to the Perth International Conference in 1996 or something ridiculously a long time ago? Oh my gosh.

Chris Evans:
Yes. Correct.

Morag Gamble:

Yeah. Well, welcome to the show and maybe we could just begin there, like your life, like my life has been very much surrounded with the whole world of permaculture. Where did it begin for you? Like, what’s it got, you started in the world of permaculture and why did you stay in it? What attracted you and what keeps you?

Chris Evans:

Yeah, it’s a story I’ve told many times, I suppose, but it’s always different each time. So I was working in Nepal, as a volunteer with an organization called VSO -voluntary service overseas. I was succonded to a community forestry program. So I was working in community forestry with a project that was actually in 29 districts of Nepal. Very big, highly funded FAO world bank, United nations and government-funded projects. And it was hopeless. It was, it was utterly failed in its goals to plant more trees, involve people more in community forest, etcetera. It has worked in some areas better, but in my area, which was the district of [inaudible] very remote in those days very remote no electric no roads, no, nothing like that. But I just reveled in the culture and the yeah, the remoteness, back to earth type, it just really all just really fit it. But yeah frustration with the program, with the project. I came across permaculture in 1988, after I’d been in Nepal already for a couple of years. It just resonated. There was Bill Mollison he just been to Nepal. And with a local chap Badri Dahal started an organization called INSAN – Institute for sustainable agriculture Nepal. I tacked on to that. Did some reading. Did my PDC in New Zealand in 1989, January after the third conference the convergence that was in New Zealand. Yeah, and then took it on from there. We started a farm, in the district where I’d been working as a VSO. I was still with VSO, used that time as a transition to go independent. We started the Jajarkot Permaculture Program which became hugely popular and successful. Mainly if you look at it in terms of the outputs achieved with the money spent. So we were working in 63 villages. We had 12,000 farmers that were connected staff. We’d have festivals and trainings and 4 different districts, it was huge or it became huge. But our budget was like the cost of a land cruiser. $70,000 or something like that.

Morag Gamble:

Where did you get the money from? To get that happening.

Chris Evans:

scraped around. I mean, it started with with a 500-pound grant from from I think, was it Oxfam through the VSO. So that was the last connection with them to, was to raise a bit of money and a loan from my dad to buy the land that we, that I lived on, to start the first farm. So, small amounts here and there basically scraped together, there was some longer term connections as well, which we’ve greatly appreciated. Some organizations, charities stuck with us for years and years and years, very important. It just grew, it just grew.

Morag Gamble:

So is that farm, that original farm still going? Or is it?

Chris Evans:

No, it’s not, it’s been, it’s been. I actually haven’t been back to that district for over 20 years now because of the Maoist insurgency. Originally I had to leave because of that. In the end of the nineties, 1998 was the last time I was there. I haven’t had the chance to go back.

Morag Gamble:

So there’s lots of questions that have come up from what you’ve just said there first, but maybe we can go right back to the start when you were saying that you were there and you just really connected with the culture and the way of life, and you just felt it fit. And it’s something that I experienced in Ladakh when, in my early twenties that I thought. Maybe there’s something kind of similar to this, and it’s what led me to, to permaculture as well. I wonder where you were like, with permaculture and the work that you’re doing there. How did that fit and what was the relationship with the local people, how they responded to this thing called permaculture being offered as a way different, I guess, from these other programs that you’ve seen?

Chris Evans:

Hmm well, I’ll say the relationship came from the failure of the original project I was working with. Which was about planting trees. And what I found out through the cultural connection was that isn’t actually farmers clear trees to farm. So then you say you want to go planting trees and it’s like, that’s in direct conflict with what they’re doing, what they’re needing to do in order to maintain and increase that farm productivity. So when permaculture came along, it showed me that it was more than just planting trees. I had to look at local economics, but culture at, farming. Not just forestry and it really just helped me to connect the dots between all those different sectors and that in fact, life is connected and integrated together. So that was the big, that was the big kind of aha! moment with looking at permaculture in those areas. And the fact of course that as Mollison said permaculture takes lessons a lot from acknowledges in indigenous cultures as well. And so looking at those learning what they are is the first step before you look to intervene or, make an action. It’s learn what’s there. And so that’s why I set to with these new eyes of integration.

Morag Gamble:

So I wonder what were some of the first things that you noticedthat they went, oh, aha. This is useful. Like, what were the things, which were the kind of the interesting bits for them that they went, oh, well, I’ll take that bit and then opened up to all the other things. What was that first point of connection you think that really made them interested in it.

Chris Evans:

The connection. Connection with the land, the understanding of soil and local climate and, and biodiversity? Yeah, the seeds the organic nature, I mean, organic by proxy really cause these areas were too far to get chemicals and that sort of thing. And it’s interesting that on one hand, that’s the situation on the other hand, what I knew underlying that was that if an organization came with bags of fertilizer and hybrid seeds, a lot of the farmers that would say, oh yeah, that sounds really good. That must be good because it comes from the outside and it’s modern and development has traditionally not acknowledged the richness of traditional systems, indigenous systems. They’ve actually been an impediment to modernization. and that was a big learning for me as well. And so a big part of the work became to acknowledge and appreciate those systems that farmers have and to show that actually don’t throw the baby out with the bath water, if you want to improve your farming, base it on what you’ve already got and, and find what are the niches to improve one of the tweaks to the system. And there were many it’s not all perfect and it’s a very hard life subsistence farming and especially for gender and for people at the margins and marginal communities in Nepal. You’ve got the caste system, which is not one of the indigenous system that we want to keep. Very patriarchal. So there are challenges about indigenous systems as well, but I’ll say the first thing is to learn what they aren’t and to see what are the opportunities for improving.

Morag Gamble:

So I want to ask, pick up on the thread that you threw in there about seed. And I know that throughout India people like Vandana Shiva have been doing a lot of work, has that work extended into Nepal as well, or is that, is, was there ever an issue. We like I’m unfamiliar with this territory. So what’s going on with seed in Nepal with farmers.

Chris Evans:

Absolutely. I mean, the same patterns that you see globally. A move to centralization of seed resources, to replacement of indigenous resources with hybrid, genetically modified, etc. That pattern is there. And this attempt by government, lobbied by corporations to, yeah. Take seed resources away from communities and into the hands of corporations. It’s frightening.

Morag Gamble:

So is the work that you’ve done able to address that. Like have been there seed banks, community seed banks, like what’s been happening in that space? Has that been a part of?

Chris Evans:

Yeah, it’s kind of no brainer really for any sensible regenerative project is that it needs to be involved with seed. So we are indeed and all the groups we have we do everything from training in production to facilitating exchange, creating seed banks and, breeding as well to improve, but really breeding using local skills. Not… This isn’t hybridization it’s, it’s just traditional breeding that farmers have done for thousands of years to improve varieties and land races.

Morag Gamble:

Yeah. Just selecting each seed to improve it and finding ways to build the strength of it. Yeah. So what are some of the things that you’ve found that have helped to ripple this out? I know that you’ve been going there every year for how many years now, except for COVID last year, you were saying pretty much..

Chris Evans:

35 years.

Morag Gamble:

Wow. So what happens when you’re not there? Like, I know you do when you’re there, you’re doing a lot of coordination work and linking, communication work and checking in where everyone’s at and helping develop that materials and things. What happens when, in the in-between time. Like who runs the project on the ground and how has that worked and how has it continuing to share that idea out into the community and in what ways is that happening? Sorry, that’s a whole lot of questions all in one go. Anyway…

Chris Evans:

Yeah. So basically everything happens when I’m not there. The last two years has shown how important it is to have those resilient kind of systems so it’s not at all dependent on me. I do play a role. I mean, I started, so in 1988, when we started, I was farming. I learned my farming on on few farms in Jajarkot basically. And then living with farmers around. I plowed collected for the firewood, all that sort of thing. Ever since then, the process has been to slowly withdraw from having to do that. It went from the farming to the training. So then I became a trainer and then pass that on and then became a trainer’s trainer. So moving up levels and sort of withdrawing from the need to actually be there. It’s not my project at all. I’m just a little, a little part in the process and in the engine really. So I call myself an advisor and I advise and at the same time network and make connections, go for fundraising if that’s a need or that we haven’t had a significant need to for many years now. We’re actually on the in the process of at the end of a project cycle, 10-year project cycle. Now the onus is actually on how to be, not reliant on donors and how to be able to produce income, and resources from within the program. And that’s always been an aim really, but now we’re, we’re kind of more focused on that. In terms of scaling up as I mentioned the first few years, the first 10, 12 years, we went from zero to 12,000 farmers, 63 villages, etcetera. it was, it was interesting to see that growth process and the fact that if it would be always possible for more villages to come and say, we want to join. And so instead of providing one village with two secateurs, you have to provide 10 villages with two and that’s 20 secateurs and so you could just keep on expanding until you need a thousand secateurs, but then all your budget goes on buying secateurs and managing buying them and sending them and all that sort of thing. And we realized that that’s not, that’s a continuous growth model which as we know, has serious issues about continuous growth. And so we’ve, we’ve learned over the years in particular over the last 10 or 15 years that we need to remain small, like a, a beating heart, but the body around that changes and the limbs can extend or rather than not the limbs extend, but, but the energy and the resources coming out of that board, can go away freely and be like seed in different there’s lots of parallels and other things metaphors to sell the germinate. So we’ve got a core, we’ve got a core number of villages actually at the moment it’s 30, 31 or 32 villages in two districts and the core staff and then we have what we call the barefoot consultants. So these are farmer resource people. Basically men and women that have been through the years of training of applying the principles and the practices on their own land, in their own communities. They then are given specific training, like talks, trainer’s training, group facilitation training and permaculture design, obviously and then they can go wherever. And we have lots of connections now with other organizations, local government as well and they’re saying, okay, we want to start this project in that district, or that village send someone. Either they can pay for it as well. So they basically provide employment for these consultants or barefoot consultants or if we have small amounts of budget we can pay as well. So basically the idea is that they are, they are actually responsible for spreading and expanding and scaling up. And when retain the kind of key heart and core of demonstration farms that we can do that as well. But people come to us, it’s not like we have to go out.

Morag Gamble:

That was going to be my next question about how important the role of having a really substantial demonstration or network of demonstration farms is to this work in sharing this kind of skill and knowledge.

Chris Evans:

Absolutely from the very, very start of the project we realized that there were three main kind of pillars or strategies to have, and the first is demonstration. If you can’t see it seeing is believing is, is the adage and you can’t do that on a whiteboard or even on a video. I mean, the videos and stuff help, obviously when you can, when you can put things together like that, but to actually go to a place and be able to see it and touch the plants and understand the soil and the compost and that sort of thing is that, that has to be the first stage. The second stage is then training because you see something and you think, oh, wow, that looks great. How do I learn? How it’s, how is it done? And so the training and the education is the second part. And then the third part is then, well farmers have been, they’ve seen, they’ve seen the fruit trees, they’ve learned how to do grafting and layering and all the technical stuff. Now they need some seed or they need a plant, a mother plant or it might be a book or a film video or something, the resources, to be able to go home and implement it on their own land in their own community. So those were the three things, demonstration training and resource provision we’ve since kind of added to that research because when you have some funded, supported, or subsidized farms, you can take risks. And we realized that sometimes that’s necessary if you’re going to try new things and new context so that might be for doing no-till or green manures or bio fertilizers or something new anyway, that the, you want to try farmers can’t afford to fail. That’s one of the issues that we saw found. They can’t afford to try things if it’s going to fail, they need to try things that they know are gonna work and so, research was one, extra strategy. And the final one is then advocacy, because if you’ve got something that works you need to be able to lobby local government to say this is actually where you need to put your resources, not in things that are damaging by the social structures, economic structures, or the ecology.

Morag Gamble:

Who’s doing that advocacy work is that local people there who were leading the program going in and providing them there, or how, how do they do the advocacy work?

Chris Evans:

Again, it links back to the demonstration. So a farmer can can advocate something if he can say, well, look, this is what I’m doing, and this is how it’s working so, and it links them to the training because when they have the skills to pass that knowledge on you can be incredibly knowledgeable about things, but not be able to talk to other people or not be able to communicate very well. So to have those skills is to become a lobbyist basically. Yeah, that’s one level. The other level is actually to go to local authorities and say, or understand what their programs are. So for example, the agriculture office might have a program to work with rice farming. And we can say, well, Hey, we’ve got 40 farmers that are growing, SRI-rice. So that’s a specific technique or group of principles. That means you need less water and less seed and it needs to be organic, but you get it, you can get two or three times the productivity and say, well we’ve got these demonstrations, send your farmers to come and look. So that’s another way, again, it’s, it’s through the actual practical work that’s going on.

Morag Gamble:

Through that, like going and saying, look, this is what’s happening over here, come and have a look, bring your government offices, bring your policy people, bring your farmers. What kind of shifts have you been able to see or to manifest at that level? Like, is there some kind of shift happening in the policy level?

Chris Evans:

Very slowly. And I mean, it is one of the things that we, from the very start again from 1988, we work, we look to work with local government and actually some of the horror stories also come from that area. So local government actually imprisoned two of our carpenters who went to a village to build beehives and weaving looms. And they were imprisoned in shackles accused of felling, forest and various things. And they were basically treated like murderers in the local jail and so that’s also something that can happen with local authority interaction. They’re very temporary, they’re usually based just on their own, on their own agendas so we always have to be aware that putting energy into, making those connections might often be wasted. However, that obviously doesn’t stop you needing to always be open to having those.

Morag Gamble:

New conversations. Yeah. Sorry you go ahead, Chris.

Chris Evans:

Sometimes, sometimes it works and something productive does come out of it. It’s just, it’s a bit hit and miss.

Morag Gamble:

Yeah. I mean, it’s a bit like working here as well. I think, the kind of thing that you’re doing is just going out and doing it and setting it up and teaching people and people seeing it. And it speaks for itself in a way and it’s easier sometimes if you’ve got policy that can help support it. But like I said, just focusing in energy, there can sometimes be a real drawdown of energy. And when you really try to sort of make every dollar and every bit of energy make the biggest possible difference, I totally get what you’re saying. I was just going to ask you whether there was any interest from universities or research bodies there like in terms of agroecological approaches or whether it had got into schools and where the schools were having school gardens and teaching it, like, where else has it rippled into sort of public space?

Chris Evans:

Definitely. We have a proactive schools program. So we work with schools in our own project areas and that’s because they’ve got land. So physical work on the land with tree planting, gardens, nurseries, et cetera, but also with curricular. So, spending time with kids in their lessons which the schools are so far in, in some cases anyway, they’ve been very happy to provide. Also developing curricular or vocational training as part of school curriculum. That’s also an ongoing thing. So yeah, connection with schools is very good. It’s very proactive. There is, there is connection with local authorities in some areas to try and in particular from our side to find drawdowns and funding. So I talked about not being dependent on donors and charities and the like. There’s lots of local authority money often even in a poor country like Nepal. And when I say poor, in inverted commerce, it’s rich in many, in many ways so, but governments do have money obviously for educational, agricultural health and livelihoods development. And those are all the areas that we work in. So it’s very much a work in progress really, but we realized that we have to focus on what the farmers are doing and, and getting those demonstrations, those training resources, getting the proof there that the systems work. And then, it’s up to other people to also take it on as well as we’re coming back to the policy, to the policy advocacy and lobbying type work that really involves also networking with other organizations rather than trying to do that by yourself and so that’s partially the permaculture network within Nepal. That’s partially other, related things like agrecology for example, which is getting more press now. So actually permaculture development is quite specific, but our agroecological development is becoming much more kind of broadband so FAO and, and through FAO, they’ve got, they got now lobbying and policy structures to..

Morag Gamble:

It feels like it’s kind of something that’s a little bit easier maybe to grab hold of it because it’s more it is more about farming, whereas permaculture is more about the whole systems approach, and maybe it’s easier just to kind of grasp it. I hear often in these sorts of conversations that there is permaculture is considered an agro ecological approach. I kind of often flip it around and think about agroecology being one of the kind of strategies or approaches that you can embed within a permaculture system. I don’t know what’s your thinking around that?

Chris Evans:

Absolutely. I totally agree. And interestingly, when I was talking about the history of the project and where we went through this kind of 10, 12 year growth from zero to 12,000 farmers. We didn’t use the word permaculture in that, or very rarely because it doesn’t translate there isn’t a translation to that word in that, in Nepalese. But looking at agroecology, it’s like, okay, okay, farming and nature and those two things can be translated very easily. It’s very close to understanding that that communities have, because nature is all around them. they work with nature every day, as soon as they get up. So yes, it’s, it’s much more translatable without using the P word.

Morag Gamble:

Yeah. I wanted to ask you too. A couple of years ago there was the disastrous earthquake in Nepal. I wonder what, what happened? What did you see happen there and in terms of how maybe the work permaculture being able to help with the disaster relief or what happened at that point and how, and how are they going now?

Chris Evans:

Well so our areas weren’t affected directly. Cause they’re in the far west of Nepal however we had one farm in Katmandu, the sunrise farm that was damaged and we set up a crowdfunder and to repair that. And at the same time we started up a project that was funded by lush cosmetics to bring farmer the consultants that I was mentioning earlier to bring them from our areas to four villages that were obliterated basically by the earthquake and to work with farming systems there, including seed. So you mentioned seed earlier on, well, our areas actually produced or gifted about 150 kilos of different types of seed vegetables mainly, but also some grains to, to some of the earthquake affected areas there and also then seedlings, so grafted apples and other plants. So they were actually able to provide a whole lot of stuff for free. So they were gifted by these groups and that was really, that was really enriching to see that, that the farmers, they didn’t have any money, they could keep them or tarpaulins or that sort of thing, or, or sacks of rice for immediate disaster response but they had seed and they had seedlings and they had people, they had trainers that could, that would go, that went to live in these villages. Some of them for two or three years.

Morag Gamble:

I mean, this is a key part of that resilience, like a permaculture approach being about building long-term resilience, isn’t it rather than sort of boom or bust, or just, like just focusing on one harvest or just focusing on disaster where they could really is this in for the longer term and that whole.. That’s fantastic news. Yeah. That’s wonderful. So you’re about to go there again soon. I hear, which is very exciting for you. Cause I know that we were saying earlier, before we got on how much it makes your heart sing to be there I wanted to ask you though, how has your work in Nepal informed the work that you do back home in the UK and how did, how has it changed? Well, maybe you don’t have any reference point because you cannot always be there, but how do you feel like it’s actually influenced and informed the work that you do and now even at Applewood farm too, where you’re based in it’s Herefordshire, isn’t it, I get that right?

Chris Evans:

Yeah. Tara, Virginia just on the border of Wales. well I suppose this, the structure of demonstration training and resources is, is something that was developed in Nepal but I carry that around with me wherever. One of the things that I really enjoy doing with other people or organizations is developing resource centers. That is the basic strategy for that. So a resource center something that demonstrates trains and provides resources for or from and so, so that has been stuck with me wherever I’ve been and it’s only in the last six years now that we’ve actually had our own place here at Applewood Permaculture Centre in Herefordshire and, and that remains our, our focus, our mission is demonstration. Demonstration and education in resilient, livelihoods, landscapes, and lifestyles as the strapline goes.

Morag Gamble:

Don’t you also do training programs to help people understand how to more effectively work in permaculture development work? Is that something that you’re also doing, I know you have in the past with COVID, it’s kind of changed how everyone’s doing things lately, but is that something that you’ve continued to do?

Chris Evans:

Definitely. And the development side of it working in third world countries is that’s been my life for 35 years and I’m going to keep doing that whether I have to do it online or not. So yeah, we had a course, we developed a course permaculture for development workers, which is where people working in conventional development get permaculture inputs. So like that’s about then diversification, integration between different aspects of development, whether it’s health, farming, education, livelihoods, whatever, all the different, what we call silos of development further into, into the relief. So disaster relief type projects as well. So the, the principles are applicable wherever you are and whatever you do as you know but we thought, okay, so my experience is that is the permaculture is very, very well, adapted to, or adaptable to working in development situations. Bearing in mind that development could be down the road in the local village that need. So it’s about people identifying their needs and being able to meet them and to be able to problem solve. Whether that’s in Herefordshire or in Nepal wherever it’s relevant. And so I mean, now we’re fortunate that we’ve got our own base here. So instead of going off to other people’s farms or communities or places to teach, we do it from here on our own resource center, but ultimately that is an extension of the strategy that was developed back in 1988 in the district of Jajarkot in the little corner of a little one acre farm so it’s kind of..

Morag Gamble:

One acre farming. Is that pretty standard?

Chris Evans:

Yeah. One to two acres. I mean, they have then obviously access to a huge amount of community and forest land, which might be in various states of health or degradation so it was one of the earliest really interesting statistics that I learned about was that to sustainably manage, a unit of homestead or small holding in Nepal. So farm take six units of forest. So that’s an acre to six acres and that’s providing fodder, fuel, wood for the household, leaf litter for the livestock which, the fodder and the livestock and tthe leaflets are actually, obviously that’s the nutrient cycle that runs the whole business but then also wild food mushrooms game all of that taking all of that into, into account. The FAO came up with this six to one ratio. So from a very early time, our aim became to reduce that ratio. So reduce the amount of time and reliance that there is on the forest by design of farms. So on the demonstration farms that we had originally, we brought that, that ratio down to zero, we didn’t have to leave the farm at all, to get the resources of fodder and firewood and and leaflets to run the farm. It is all produced by, on farm design, mainly through agroforestry, but also green manures and growing biomass on the farms basically, and then cycling that, and creating those interactions between different resources

Morag Gamble:

That is profound when you think about it, because often it’s things like that, the use of the commons or the use of the forest, even if it’s done in a sort of a low impact is as things change is an externality and they don’t end up getting managed. And so by shifting that pattern the forest, hopefully the forest can then have more of a chance to be protected and be better managed. And also, I think it’s really fascinating to really explore this idea of the commons. Like how was that, how was that managed and are the common still there and available for people as shifting and changing as Nepal modernizes, or has Nepal grows in population and the agriculture’s shifted like what’s happened or that common forest?

Chris Evans:

Well, when I first went there as a forester one of the things that I learned was that, the forests were nationalized probably now about 50 years ago 50 or 60 years ago which took the ownership out of communal hands and into government hands. And that’s when the problems started in terms of overexploitation. So you own something, you tend to look after it even if it’s community-owned but when that’s taken away from you and put into government hands, then all of a sudden it’s a it’s a free resource. So that was one aspect, and what we move towards again, through the demonstration and the mobilization was that by the good design of farms, then you reduce the pressure on the forest. Forest can go can regenerate and you don’t need to plant. We stopped planting seedlings quite early on. In community areas, in degraded forest areas. All you need to do is protect. Keep the livestock off, keep the fire off and we had, we saw regeneration on massive areas of degraded land. One thing where permaculture really helped with that was of course the donation theory. So we was about, okay, the farm, if you look at a farmer’s sort of zone, 1, 2, 3 zone four is in the communal grazing areas and zone five of the forest areas. Then the aim of good design, as far as I understand it is, is to not rely on the, on the five to have a regenerative four and then to focus your production on one to three or zero to three in fact. Which is why, which is where we were able to not need to go to zone five and we brought those resources onto the farm.

Morag Gamble:

That’s so fantastic. I’m so glad you said that, because I think that’s a really important point. And just as you were talking about it too, I’m wondering too, what the impact of climate change is having on the forest, on the landscape, on water systems on communities there. What what’s going on up there?

Chris Evans:

Well, again, it’s similar patterns to that you see all over. Unseasonal rainfall. I mean, temperatures hasn’t been such an issue, but rainfall has in particular. So it rains when it shouldn’t, and it doesn’t rain when it should. Harvest time is when it should be sunny and dry. And if it’s raining that damages your crops. So they have definitely been feeling the effects. In fact, even 20 years ago, we were starting to see, farmers were saying, this is different, something’s changing here. I mean, what I’ve always said is that actually the techniques and strategies to be resilient in general work for climate change. So more organic matter in the soil, more diversity, more emphasis on perennials, capture your water put it in the soil, put it into biomass, extend your growing seasons , increase your options, like multi systems for important functions. So that’s what we needed to be doing and the good news is that that works to mitigate a lot of the effects of climate change but at the same time understanding that farmers need to be also adaptable because it is changing and really need to kind of shore up resources and make sure that the resources are being regenerated as much as possible the first and the first activity is always do no harm. So stop, stop activities that are harming and that’s chemicals and that’s, that’s often tillage or late or leaving the soil bare there are times when it’s appropriate to do that. I would also add, but stop harming is what we have to do. We have to design our systems to remove that. And it’s not like it’s not like saying, okay, well, we’ll cope with a certain amount of damage and, and poisoning of the land. It’s like, no, don’t stop that work that is harming the environment. Harming biodiversity harming water and harming air. So that needs to be stopped and then we can look at, okay, how do we, how do we kind of shore up the defenses and protect and become and create more resilient systems?

Morag Gamble:

Yeah. I was wondering too, about taking the lessons from this work and applying it to the communications that you do at a global scale. You talkg in like regenerative permaculture collab type groups, how are the lessons that you’re learning on your place in Nepal also then helping to inform broader conversations in permaculture. As someone who’s been in permaculture since pretty much the beginning it’s where do, where do you see your role in that?

Chris Evans:

Well, interestingly, before this chat started, I was on a call with a group in the UK that are connected to the permaculture association working on the land called the land project learning and demonstration. And that is about setting up or not setting up, but promoting and supporting people and communities that are, that want to do this demonstration and training type stuff. So maybe it was a long time ago, 12 years ago, 15 years ago the permaculture association got lottery funding to start a project. and that in fact was partially informed by the work we were doing in Nepal. So demonstration training and resource production, as I’ve mentioned, the three kind of pillars or strategies was taken up by the Permaculture association here, they got funding through the lottery to set up a network of centers, so land centers or land learner centers. So on the way to being a learner center, which is basically a center, the center or a place, it could be a back garden or a front garden, even where people would go and they’d leave understanding what permaculture was. So that was the main, that was the main kind of output.

Morag Gamble:

Brilliant! Yeah. And so that network exists now and people can join that network still?

Chris Evans:

That’s exactly what the meeting was about, was about redeveloping. Cause that was, that was happening 15 years ago and it was only funded it was like funded for 10 years or so. And it was like, well, how do we keep that going? We didn’t quite have the perfect design or the functional design to do that. So it felt a bit by the wayside having created a network of over a hundred different places from literally from back gardens to like two or three acre holdings so then we looked at, okay, how do we take it up to farm level? And that became the farm land project. and now it’s being revamped and we’re also calling it island, which is inter business. There’s another aspect, which is island, which is international land centers. So it’s also kind of on a global level as well where, yeah, we’re just looking to create or a simple, I mean, some of it is already there. It’s not inventing new stuff. It’s also just coordinating and linking up things that are already going on and making that a kind of a learning and demonstration resource for people everywhere and in two thirds world places, it’s going to be different in tropical subtropical areas. It’s going to be different in rich countries or urban areas, it’s going to be different, obviously in in the west we have many more people living in cities and so urban permaculture is much more significant to people to connect with and it’s really exciting that we’re, we’re now revamping this design to create more of these centers that are supported and then can share their own experiences because I think that’s actually where we have to go. We know these systems work we know people enrich themselves, their families, their land, their communities by doing this stuff. So it’s like, well, how do we make that more accessible.

Morag Gamble:

And I think that’s the thing too. Also having those connected, it has a much bigger voice in a way of being more, being more visible to the world, beyond the permaculture world. So if you’re interested in permaculture where to go to find that information, but it can also be in a way, a leverage point for advocating for systems change, because we can see that this. Permaculture has trainers everywhere around the world. Permaculture has demonstrations everywhere around the world. It’s working. Together we can actually then start to shift things and layer other conversations over that. So I think it’s absolutely brilliant. And I will, in the show notes for this podcast, put a link to that work as well, if it’s possible that the island, is that something that we can..

Chris Evans:

The several projects going on that are, that are similar, and in parallel. So the land network in the UK. So that will be link to the association, and their land project site. The island is also a work in process. So there are, there is a format that people can actually apply to, to be a land center. We’ve got people from, from all places from Asia, Africa from all over so far and that’s, but he’s also working in progress being developed so it needs more, it needs more people being involved with it as well so yes, yes.

Morag Gamble:

Wonderful. So I know that you’re very busy at this moment getting prepared for a workshop at your place. What’s, what’s coming up for you. What’s what are you doing this weekend?

Chris Evans:

well, I mean, with the pandemic we’ve actually not had much going on here for the last couple of years almost. We’ve moved a lot to online designed courses and other stuff. Looby’s on with her cultural emergence, the people in permaculture side has been doing a lot more online stuff. So this is one of the opportunities that with the relaxing of restrictions we’ve wanted to go for we’ve got a forest garden weekend coming up. So learning about yeah. What, why and how forest gardening.

Morag Gamble:

So people just come from all over the UK for that, where do you find people coming from?

Chris Evans:

Yeah, well all over. I mean, if it’s a larger course, like the trainer’s training, we get people also from Europe coming to those as well. But hopefully next year is the aim is to do a trainer’s training. Face-to-face training Australia, as opposed to an online one. It goes, yeah,

Morag Gamble:

We used to have lots of courses happening here at crystal waters too. And I remember when I was running the PDCs and the advanced permaculture courses of all different sorts, there was generally half people from Australia and half from around the world. It’s just totally not possible at this point in time. People can’t get in or out of Australia. So the world has changed a lot since then, but.

Chris Evans:

It’s shown us the value of online linkage as well, because actually a course can be much more accessible to people that can’t travel. It’s reducing, obviously the travel costs, the carbon footprint of travel and generally we found that we can run them cheaper because there are certain elements we don’t have to pay for and so that makes it a lot more accessible to people on lower incomes as well.

Morag Gamble:

It’s such an it’s such an amazing different way of teaching and it’s been such a fascinating way to explore, connecting and creating communities of practice and design studios and education labs and conversation circles, and all sorts of things that just keep the conversation going rather than just the course. And then you’re finished. It’s an ongoing community, which is fantastic. Well, thank you so much for joining me today, Chris. It has been an absolute delight to sort of dive into your, into your world of permaculture. I know that it’s something that you obviously, like me, we’ll just continue for the rest of your rest of your life. And, and obviously to the fact that, you’re still as committed to it, or maybe more than what you ever were, that there’s something about the possibilities in the future and addressing all the multiple crisis that we’re facing now, there’s something in permaculture you feel is really key. And maybe that could be something you could just end with a couple of reflections on that. Like, what is the future that you hope through a permaculture way of being?

Chris Evans:

Yeah, I mean, in some ways it’s quite straightforward, it’s connect with nature. It’s what I think the, one of the roots of the problems that we have is a disconnection with nature. It’s certainly why we’re in the sort of climate and biodiversity situation that we are so, permaculture will give that it will give that connection reconnection with nature and same thing is stopping doing the harm. Stop any practices. I remember one of the things from Bill’s course was he had, he had three steps for participation. One was stop your use of non-renewable resources. So that’s the fossil fuels. So get off that. One was connect yourself to the growing cycle. So that’s grow your own food or be connected to growing food. And we all know that not everyone can grow food through for various reasons. And the third was make linkages with like-minded people. So what’s interesting is all of those three things you can start doing right now, right now. In some way. Today, tomorrow and that has always stayed with me as a integrator making really effective, low-cost statements. So small statements, but with big meanings. So that sticks with me. So, so reconnect with nature, stop any harmful activities and leave a system better than you found it is, is the other application that I find a need. That might be the kitchen sink when it’s time to wash up.

Morag Gamble:

I wish my kids knew that! (laughter) Yeah. It’s kind of very simple, common sense, but incredibly powerful. And it’s so great too, that you had the chance to at a young age, spend time with Bill and really be immersed in his world. It must’ve been quite an extraordinary thing to have that opportunity to do that.

Chris Evans:

It was very enriching. Yes.

Morag Gamble:

Thank you, Chris. That was just wonderful. Yeah. So many key lessons of just really cutting it down to like, what are some of those key steps? And I think people can really grab hold of those and go, oh yeah, that’s totally doable. I can do that. That and it, whatever you can keep coming back to those pillars at whatever level you are in your experience and hang different things off it. So it can be simple and small, or it can be this multi-pronged project that with those things.

Chris Evans:

Yeah. Yeah. Keeping it simple. One thing I learned about, about indigenous systems or indigenous ethics and principles is that they usually coming in groups of two or three. So which is also around simplicity but also scale and appropriateness. If you, like Holmgren’s 12 principles, it’s like, wow, there’s 12. How can we remember all of those different things, but you’ve only got three ethics and so that’s really good. And then you’ve gotdemonstration training and resources. It’s just three things.

Morag Gamble:

If you can get up to a handful. I think that’s probably the max, isn’t it? One for each finger, that’s it.

Chris Evans:

But a lot of indigenous systems work at that level, that scale. So two or three things or four yeah. Handful of things. And that’s how they, that’s how they assemble the modes of living.

Morag Gamble:

I think it’s like, you’re saying it’s for anyone really. Like, I even have trouble trying to remember, or I managed to get when it was originally Mollison’s 10. I got those really nailed. I don’t know if I could even nail off all the 12 principles just off the top of my head. And in that order, it doesn’t stick so much. Like I know them intuitively and, and how, but to be able to list them off just doesn’t kind of,

Chris Evans:

Yeah, but the ethics are simple because there’s only three.

Morag Gamble:

Well, thank you so much for taking the time today to chat. I’m going to include all the different links to the references that you’ve sent me and to all the books. That’s all for today. Thanks so much for joining me. If you like a copy of my top 10 books to read, click the link below, pop in your email and I’ll send it straight to you. You can also watch this interview over on my YouTube channel. I’ll put the link below as well, and don’t forget to subscribe, leave a comment. And if you’ve enjoyed it, please consider giving me a star rating. Believe it or not, the more people do this. The more podcast bots will discover this little podcast. So thanks again. And I’ll see you again next week.