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Morag: Welcome to the Sense-Making in a Changing World Podcast, where we explore the kind of thinking we need to navigate a positive way forward. I’m your host Morag Gamble, permaculture educator, and global ambassador, filmmaker, eco villager, food forester, mother, practivist and all-around lover of thinking, communicating and acting regeneratively. For a long time it’s been clear to me that to shift trajectory to a thriving one planet way of life, we first need to shift our thinking. The way we perceive ourselves in relation to nature, self, and community is the core. So this is true now more than ever and even the way change is changing, is changing. Unprecedented changes are happening all around us at a rapid pace. So how do we make sense of this? To know which way to turn, to know what action to focus on, so our efforts are worthwhile and nourishing and are working towards resilience, regeneration, and reconnection? What better way to make sense than to join together with others in open generative conversation.

In this podcast, I’ll share conversations with my friends and colleagues, people who inspire and challenge me in their ways of thinking, connecting and acting. These wonderful people are thinkers, doers, activists, scholars, writers, leaders, farmers, educators, people whose work informs permaculture and spark the imagination of what a post-COVID, climate-resilient, socially just future could look like. Their ideas and projects help us to make sense in this changing world to compost and digest the ideas and to nurture the fertile ground for new ideas, connections and actions. Together we’ll open up conversations in the world of permaculture design, regenerative thinking, community action, earth repair, eco-literacy, and much more. I can’t wait to share these conversations with you.

Over the last three decades of personally making sense of the multiple crises we face. I always returned to the practical and positive world of permaculture with its ethics of earth care, people care and fair share. I’ve seen firsthand how adaptable and responsive it can be in all contexts from urban to rural, from refugee camps to suburbs. It helps people make sense of what’s happening around them and to learn accessible design tools, to shape their habitat positively and to contribute to cultural and ecological regeneration. This is why I’ve created the Permaculture Educators Program to help thousands of people to become permaculture teachers everywhere through an interactive online dual certificate of permaculture design and teaching. We sponsor global Permayouth programs, women’s self help groups in the Global South and teens in refugee camps. So anyway, this podcast is sponsored by the Permaculture Education Institute and our Permaculture Educators Program. If you’d like to find more about permaculture, I’ve created a four-part permaculture video series to explain what permaculture is and also how you can make it your livelihood as well as your way of life. We’d love to invite you to join a wonderfully inspiring, friendly, and supportive global learning community. So I welcome you to share each of these conversations, and I’d also like to suggest you create a local conversation circle to explore the ideas shared in each show and discuss together how this makes sense in your local community and environment. I’d like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land in which I meet and speak with you today, the Gubbi Gubbi people and pay my respects to their elders past, present and emerging.

My guest in this episode of Sense-Making in a Changing World is a 2021 Kofi Annan Global Changemaker. She’s the founder of Kichini Gardeners Initiative in Wakiso near Kampala, Uganda, connecting young people to nature conservation, civic engagement through gardening and through bringing soil alive. She also mentors out of school young girls in the slums around her area. And as an environmental scientist, she helps to raise awareness about the key issues also in her community, things like waste and plastic, access to clean water, climate change, and loss of biodiversity. She’s a peace ambassador and a proud member of this small group of dedicated Kofi Annan Changemakers. I wanted to let you know that at times our connection gets a little bit dodgy, but we persist. So it’s my great pleasure to welcome to the show Irene Nagudi. Welcome to the show Irene, it’s so great to have you. For the listeners, Irene is based in Uganda in Kampala. So we’re hoping that this connection is going to work well. And, so Irene is a 2021 climate ambassador of the Global Youth Climate Network, 2021 Kofi Annan Changemaker. And she runs a nonprofit organization called Kichini Gardeners. Welcome to the show, Irene. Start with telling us a little bit about, what does it mean to be a Kofi Annan Changemaker?

Irene: I would say it’s a very wonderful opportunity that came my way. I didn’t, I wasn’t so positive that I would go through, I’m lucky that among the few, I was selected to be a changemaker of engaging the young people, letting them know what we can do, how can they raise their voices to prevent some of the challenges we’re facing today, for instance, for the security, when you talk about biodiversity laws and these are some of the things that young people have to step up and walk together with the elderly because we’re talking about our involvement, tomorrow, how will the planet be tomorrow if we, the young people do not get involved? Yeah.

Morag: And so you’re based in Kampala, what’s happening at the moment there in terms of climate change? What impacts are you seeing?

Irene: When we talk about Kampala, the Kampala is not that big of a district, my district is, I’m based in Wakiso District, the neighboring district of Kampala. So you find that most of the times when you train, we do face floods that, should I call them slums, they do face these challenges of waterlogged for like a week. And afterwards things get back to normal. But since I don’t stay in such areas, I’m not all that affected, but I feel like even if some of us who do not stay in such areas, we have to raise our voices. You find that, children do not know it’s related to classwork, someone tells you, climate change is this and this, that’s the definition they know, but they do not know what climate change can cause, the potential effects of climate change and what we can do about it. So you feel that in my conference, there is an information gap and I think children should be part of this. They have to know what we can do practically to contribute to what climate action to contribute towards conservation.

Morag: So I wonder, you run a program called Kichini Gardeners and that’s about teaching children about conservation, civic responsibility through gardening. And so it’s, I guess, is this your sort of main way of helping to connect young people to thinking about climate change and climate action? Tell me a little bit about what it is that you do there in that program.

Irene: Well, the program is all about, can I give you maybe a brief history about the program, went back, my background, that I did environmental sciences. I felt like practicing, no, there is still a knowledge gap. This is something, university, when you go to university, you do this course. If you graduate, boom, it helps you go to the employment world which is not bad, but I think we can do more actions that are in the university, but even people were able to Lower. So for Kichini Gardeners, it started with five kids and as I was gardening along with them, trying to get away from, I had just lost my job, so trying to recover from that pain, these kids were there to support me. And that’s how I got the idea that, Hey, I can do something with these children, we can do something together and you build it. I didn’t have the idea of starting an organization or initiative by then, but just doing it as a hobby. Then with time, I saw I could do more. And I’m like, okay. I mean, I think I could do more. And I made it a point in myself, yes, I can really do more. I always had much, I had people didn’t believe what I was doing, people thought the children were very young, they couldn’t do something about it, but something inside me was telling me, no, you can do this and it can make a difference in children’s lives and their family. So that’s how I got on to Kichini Gardeners and when we started, I was having the knowledge of environment, concerning the environment, I considered it as a point of adding conservation into gardening where you could teach the children about bees because the first time they saw it, the five kids, they were like, hi bees. We all know pollinators do serve a great role in food production, besides that, when they saw the aft ones, I remember what started composting. Jesus christ! They thought it was a snake, the next thing to be scary and I too do fear snakes but I also know this is an art ones. I remember it was a process I was learning as I’m teaching them. So it made it really fun, we’re both learning. So they could give you some of the, what if we did this? So you experimented out and through that, I thought like, yeah, I think we can do more and teach other children who are missing this interaction with nature, who are missing this information, who can raise their voices. Because imagine, a six year old telling you, how about we do this?, then you decide on doing it, it shows that besides the age difference, you two people can sit together, suggest something and you make a decision, you try it out whether it works or it doesn’t work, you’re happy you’ve experimented some things together. So I thought that, I mean initiative and I’m like, yeah, it’s something that can promote gardening among the connection, like loving one another, discussing with one another and it promotes love, I would say. Yeah.

Morag: Fantastic. So it’s not just about the food, it’s actually way more than the food. I understand that a lot of young kids and it’s not just where you are, it’s around the world, you ask them, you know, would you like to be a farmer when you grow up? And they’re most likely going to say no, aren’t they? But, you know. I wonder how much this program is sort of helping them to start to love gardening?

Irene: Actually, you’re very right. When it comes to being a farmer, most of them hate it. They feel that farming food, it’s a hard job. And one time I made a challenge, can you imagine, this child didn’t know where our food comes from. They just know food comes from a supermarket, food comes from the fridge, because mom, the mother of the child, purchases food and puts it in the fridge. So that’s what they knew. But now we’re trying to change this, food doesn’t come from the fridge,food comes from some person who digs it in the soil, harvests it and brings it to you and you have to respect the farmer. So you find that they start loving gardening, farming and some of them they’re like, okay, when I grow up, I’ll have my own garden however small it might be, but I’ll produce my own food. So I believe it’s an inspiration and as they grow old, they will never forget such an experience.

Morag: No, they’re going to take that with them forever. It’s a fantastic program. So do you take this to schools and to other communities as well as your own? How was the program set up, Irene?

Irene: Oh, the program, at first, I have been raising funds on my own, from my own income. So I could reach out to friends, hey, I’m doing a gardening program with children, could you connect me with some children maybe in your home? So you find that these friends are connecting you to their homes. So you’ve got in with these children, but being a change-maker under the Kofi Annan foundation, I got the opportunity and I’m explaining this gardening initiative to at least 200 children in my community, which I didn’t have the support before. And I believe in these next nine months to one year, it will be a great experience.

Morag: And so how much of what you do is influenced by having learned something about permaculture as well?

Irene: Actually, I remember I had the permaculture lessons, that was in September, 2020. So we had been released from a lockdown and when the opportunity came, I traveled to Eastern Uganda to practice this permaculture. The few lessons I got there, it was like an interrupt, these are things we never used to know. So when I came back, I just had to experiment this through my backyard, for instance catching and storing energy, like water that was running. So I tried to see that this water, instead of just flowing along the road, how about I divert it into my backyard. And I experimented with it really well, using flowers into my garden to control pests and I saw, Hey, this can work. So it’s something that I also want to build on, including in the few permaculture techniques I have, I’ve learned. And I tried to intubate it into the gardening process, that everything is nature, and this is something that is cheaper for any home or for any child to do instead of purchasing pesticides, fertilizers. So this is something simple that the children can opt to just as we’ve adapted composting. So you find that composting has become really something that is great and we usually add it to the garden bed and we look at something out of it and I believe extending this knowledge, it will benefit the children a lot.

Morag: And what happened before people compost? Where do people normally put their food scraps? Where does it go if it’s not composted? Is it just waste somewhere?

Irene: Actually, it’s always waste, waste that is heading to the landfill. And according to the little knowledge I have, we all know that, when it comes to landfills taking in all that decomposing stuff, it contributes to greenhouse gases. So if it’s a challenge and people in my community still do not know that we can compost this, we can add it to stones. Some do have small backyards but they do not know that this can work for them. It’s still a challenge and it’s something that I’m going to be addressing in this project under the Kofi Annan Changemakers program.

Morag: Fantastic, so what’s, so the people who live in and around, you have not been living in rural areas, they’ve been more city dwellers for a long time. I’m just wondering whether anyone has brought with them some kind of rural skills and whether composting is part of a traditional way of thinking, or is it a new thing, do you think?

Irene: According to what I’m seeing, it’s a new thing to them and most of them that have lived in the city for over 20 years, 30 years, so you find that they left the rural setting way back when they traveled from their villages, come to the city and I myself have also grown up in the city. So you find that these are good techniques and the times I asked my mom, you may never practice something with your grandma or with your parents. They’re like, yeah, they used to do certain things, but you know, when you come to the city, life changes, but you find that it’s not really a habit as of now, but I believe if we connect the children who we probably they’ll teach their guardians and their parents one day.

Morag: Yeah, that’s fantastic. I know, you also in, I read that you also work mentoring adolescent girls about growing the girl child. Are you still doing that work or could you tell me a bit about perhaps if there’s any connection between gardening and your work with girls.

Irene: For an empowerment program, Girls Empowering Girls, like the big girls, we do empower the adults and girls. This is a program under UNICEF and KCCA, Kampala Capital City Authority. So, I love children and when the opportunity came, I was like, yes, I can mentor them and it has been really wonderful, though I’m thinking of extending my gardening techniques to these children. These are children in an urban setting, but in a slum. So I believe if we could do more gardening it will contribute to their food security in their homes where they do come from, because through the mentoring program I’ve tried to study a few of the problems they face. So you keep on interrupting and they believe if I extend this program of gardening to them, it will do them some good and it can save all the money that is being spent on food and their families, especially when it comes to their vegetables.

Morag: Yeah, that would be fantastic, wouldn’t it? And also looking at how you could do tiny gardens, sack gardens, gardens that can fit in those slum areas in and around Kampala, because I’ve been through the middle of those areas and there’s not much space, is there?

Irene: No. Actually what we do have are mainly those verandas, especially those on the outskirts of the city. There’s a little space we do have, but unfortunately also their space is not being put to use, and I feel like something has to be done about it.

Morag: Yeah. So how are you spreading the word about this? Because I can imagine beautiful food producing balconies full of flowers and vegetables would be a really appealing thing for people to see. And particularly, I guess, in lockdown, because you were also, you’re in lockdown right now, aren’t you?

Irene: Yes we are.

Morag: Hmm, and maybe gardening might be something that could help people during lockdown as well.

Irene: Exactly. Actually, it’s something, what I did about it, I started out with social media platforms. The little work I was doing, I could post it, at least for people to know that, Hey, there’s someone somewhere doing something about this. And I also had to set up a demonstration, like a backyard demo in my own backyard. Since I’m located along the road so that people can see what I’m practicing and through this, at least a few people have approached, they do purchase seedlings for various things, for means the vegetables seedling and that money, I use it to extend to children, Hey, can we try out something like these in different places? And it has been working out. So the demo and my social media platforms, at least they are helping to pass the message to other people here.

Morag: Yeah, great. So I wonder Irene, what is it that inspired you to think about climate action and climate change? I mean, a lot of people, like you’re saying, aren’t necessarily aware of it. They might hear about it, but it hasn’t really stuck with them. What inspired you?

Irene: Actually, I’d say the course I took at university. Then when I got fired from my job, I was already practicing the advocacy campaigns with fellow young people. But along the way, I remember we had founded an organization, but it turned out that our voices were not being heard. You suggest something and it’s left on the table. Your colleagues think, Hey, this won’t work out. You know, the government might be like this and this and still the passion I had for young people, children, because basically I do love children. And you find that I had to combine these things. I’m like, okay, what if I do something different? Something that won’t be silenced because me being silenced hurts a lot. Different young people have ideas that are really productive. But if someone puts us down, hey, don’t trace that. I feel like you’re stepping on someone’s right. And these people have to say out what they think, it might solve the problem. So basically it was through the youth organizations I was working with, for instance, we worked for the MAPS campaign Marine Arctic Peace Sanctuary. It gave us exposure, yes, also young people can do it in Africa. Young people can, their voices can be heard so that’s how my inspiration kept on being driven. And also thinking that it’s not okay to silence me. I feel like, no, my voice has to be heard. And this should be through practical action, not heading to the streets to claim climate action. Climate change is affecting us whether you find that you’re talking about climate change, but millions of Ugandans don’t understand climate change, which is a fact. How about we do simple steps that can address climate change, that can address working along with nature, that’s conservation that can address that we can work together as young people, as the older, we can work as one. So these are some of the things that really drove me up to where I am today.

Morag: Yeah. That’s really powerful, and you’re right. The thing about blending conservation and gardening and climate activism all together is really a very strong platform to stand on, to make positive change in the world. And I wonder how many other young people, so not necessarily the children, but maybe people in your age group, your peers that have you got to work with, have you got a good team of people there or not even a team, just a group of colleagues who you can talk about this and be advocates together?

Irene: Yes, but to believe in my dream challenge, you believe in something and you choose to move by it. People always follow you, people already speak interest and that’s what’s happening. I started the London journey and as I was doing this, talking about it, most of the fellow young people or my peers were like, Hi, Irene, what are you working on? That’s how your work can be great and of that, I have four people who have joined me, they helped, Irene how about you try this opportunity?, maybe I can help you here. So it was the decision I made that year. We might not believe in it, but I feel I can move this journey. So when I showed the confidence that yes, things are not easy, but I can work. People decided to join me and so far I have four people on my team. I, being the [inaudible] passion.

Morag: Fantastic. I wonder how has it changed the work that you do or the voice that you’ve had, because you were saying being silent hurts and you know, you don’t want to be silent, now that you’re a Kofi Annan Changemaker, have you been able to get more attention from the media? You know, maybe television, newspapers, magazines too? Has it given you a platform to speak wider and louder?

Irene: I haven’t yet got the opportunity, but I believe I’m going to get the opportunity. So the few people I have managed to talk to, these are people who are into conservation, people who are into advocating for the young people. So they invite you to talk about what you’re doing, talk about how you’re engaging fellow young people. Those are so far the opportunities I’ve got and I believe they can be a stepping stone to present me to other platforms out there, yeah.

Morag: Yeah, great. I think it’s so important to be able to do that. And tell me more about the Global Youth Climate Network and what does it mean to be a climate ambassador? Is that the same as the Kofi Anna program, or is that a whole different program altogether?

Irene: That’s a different program and here, I was trying to understand more about climate change, climate financing, because knowing climate change, I would say it’s a bit of a difficult topic and trying to interpret it to people who are young, people wouldn’t know nothing about climate change, it’s a bit difficult. So when I saw the application, Hey, you can apply. So I applied and I was among the chosen. So during this, I was aiming at understanding more about climate change, what is climate change? How are young people getting involved in climate change, the different ambassadors across the world, what are they doing? Because I believe learning should be a daily habit, learning from different people. These are challenges we’re facing. They might not be the same but in one way or the other, they are interlinked. And climate change is a global challenge. Tomorrow it might be the Philippines, maybe the other day in Uganda like across. So I went there purposely to understand more about climate change.

Morag: Hmm. What worries you the most about climate change?

Irene: What worries me the most? If I had to look at the young population, our population is really, I would say huge and when I look at the people who are grown ups, people who are in their fifties, seventies, you know, some of them may even tell you, for us, we’re soon dying. But the question is what remains behind, the young people who are going to stay behind. What can they do about it? Because if they start now, that means that we can have control over this problem. But if they do not start now, it’s really a challenge and well, will they say tomorrow, if we’re to count 50 years ahead, how will they manage to handle some of the things we used to see, let me say the big forest, the forests have vanished, they’re no more, what can we do about it? So it worries me a lot that you might find that tomorrow for our children to come, their grandchildren, they may not see the physical features we’ve seen today. They might not see the animals we’ve admired to see today, they might not see the forest we used to talk about way back in our primary levels. So it’s really, it would be selfish, that’s what I can say.

Morag: And you know, there’s a really strong correlation between the flooding that’s happening and the loss of the forest, because the forests as you know, hold the water up in the high, up in the hills and create those water cycles. And without that, when the rain falls, it just floods and takes the all with it. So I wonder, are there big tree planting programs that are happening and that young people are getting involved in doing? Is that something that young people are thinking, oh, great, I can be an activist and I’m going to go out and help replant some of these forests.

Irene: Yes and I’m really grateful that I’ve got friends who are doing this but you can step in one at a time and you plant together. But I have friends who are greatly concentrating on planting trees, trees in which the forest nearby has been diminished because of at times, government, at times, private companies and all that. And these young people are stepping up. So at times I connect with them and we plant trees as a way of showing that I’m not only concentrating on garden’s food, but Hey, trees help us to get this food, you know, it’s nature that provides. So I can say that I’m really grateful that young people in my country, Uganda, they are really focusing on planting trees, many of them.

Morag: And I know that there’s probably a lot of people who, it’s not on their radar to think about climate change or what’s going on. What do you think is the best way to ripple this further and faster? Because you know, we know that we’ve got a short amount of time, they’re sort of talking about by 2030, we need to make these changes. So, how do you think you can spread the kind of work that you do further? I asked this question to everyone because I have this sense of urgency that, you know, we’re all doing this great work, but there must be a way that we can amplify all this good work. Do you have any thoughts or ideas on that?

Irene: Actually, the thoughts I have is to engage everyone, I’ll give an example. Yes, we’re talking about climate change, but farmers, most of them do not know climate change, though they do see the changes, but they do not understand these things. If we talk about the Paris agreement, if we talk about climate action, they do not know the things. When we talk about the sustainable development goals, they do not understand them. We haven’t gone a mile to interpret this information to them so that they can be part. And when we look at poverty levels, you find that these global challenges are still continuing because poverty drives everything. Maybe that’s why it’s named SGD one, I don’t know but you find that it drives a number of global challenges. It’s the number one cause in my thinking, so I’m thinking that we can involve everyone. And this requires us to go even to the need to know their responsibility because it won’t make sense if the youth are fighting so hard to change these, we think that the urgency is needed yet. The people who make decisions are not interested, it shows that we’re working, but Hey, we’re not going to achieve anything because people are making decisions. They’re not altered in one way or the other so it’s a bit of a challenge, I would say though, we have to think further. And every person, whatever you’re doing, I believe you should keep on doing it. If it’s recycling of plastics, continue doing it, you’re contributing one way or the other to this problem. For instance, I’m into gardens. I’m into educating the young to also know these challenges we’re facing. I have to continue doing it the same way you’re into permaculture, you have to continue doing it. So I feel like everyone has a role to play and we just need to keep on doing what we’re doing. Influence other people to join us, at times they believe in numbers.

Morag: Yeah, you’re so right. We just need to keep on, we need to keep on, keep on doing it continuously and to make it more and more visible. I wonder, do you have support from other community organizations or other governments or NGOs who are supporting this work in Wakiso?

Irene: Actually, I have so far two people and I feel it’s a great step ahead, one is extremely together, a chapter. It’s a peace building under the Kofi Annan Foundation. And it’s through them that I learned that in your profession, in your area of work, you can do something towards peace building. If you’re to look at climate change, it’s among the things that are distorting our peace. You’re looking at when prolonged droughts are like, Hey, how are we going to get the food? For instance, we work first with the locusts and people are like, Hey, are we going to eat? You know, so you find that peace is distorted in one way or the other. So they do support us with knowledge and opportunities that we can hop on for in order to expand our project. And still they do support Kichini Gardeners in a way that there’s an opportunity here, can you jump on for it? They recommend you write a recommendation letter or that’s one way of supporting. Then I have another friend who is [inauidible] peace ambassador, Peace December and if you come across it via Instagram, it’s Peace December promoting permaculture in communities and peace.

Morag: Can you say the name again? What’s it called?

Irene: Peace December. Yes, Peace December Uganda.

Morag: No, I haven’t heard of it.

Irene: It’s led by Ali Tebandeke, he’s into permaculture. A gentleman who introduced me to permaculture like getting the brave, the basics about it. So he also supports me in any opportunities, in terms of knowing something about permaculture, gardening with children, what can I add in with that information. And so far, they have been resourceful people to me and I believe through them, I can be connected to further areas also considering the work I’m doing, the visible practical work on the ground, it can promote me further.

Morag: Yeah, absolutely. Because what I’m seeing in so many places is that permaculture can really help to address climate change. It can help to build peace in communities and it can help to address poverty. You know, like you’re saying, it’s providing food and there’s income possibilities from the surplus. So, it’s a fantastic way to address many of the issues that you’ve been talking about. I’d love to get the connection. Maybe you can send me an email or sorry, a website or something to that group. And we can add that to the show notes so people can also find out, but I wanted to just touch base on, you mentioned the SDGs before the Sustainable Development Goals. I wonder how do you see them relevant to what you’re doing in your community? Do you find them helpful?

Irene: Yeah, I do find them helpful because it’s through the SDGs that I do get to know what is really lacking in our countries. Some of the indicators they have laid down, then when we look at the different subjects they have made or when they talk about this is still lagging. I find that it’s an opportunity. I talk about issues that at least have a baseline on. and it also gives me the opportunity to know that children can also get to understand something about the SDGs, not restricting them just to people who are into them, like studying specifically about them. So I feel like SDGs are really great, they do give us the information that stands where we do stand as a country, as a region. So we get to know what is the exact problem we are still facing and we have to solve and I can relate that to nutrition. I was looking into food security, SDG 2 and the nutrition status in the country. It showed that as a country, we’ve gone a mile to fight anemia among the young women who are giving birth. It is also under nutrition but in short, obesity is trying to increase. So it gives you where to start from, if it’s obesity on the rise amongst children, what kind of activities can they extend to these children? So I believe it’s a baseline where we can relate our to and know what we can solve, where we can fix the problem, how we can handle this problem and all that. Yes.

Morag: Yeah, so what’s coming next for you, Irene? What are some of the programs that you’re thinking of in terms of taking it further? And if you could, what’s your biggest wish to have, if you could do anything, what would you do to make this, make the changes you think you need to see in the world? Big question. I know, sorry.

Irene: Oh God. Okay. My dream is to have a farm, but this farm is a way of bringing together young people from different backgrounds. They could be from the region like Africa. They could be from outside Africa, but they’re coming here for basically learing about the gardening. What projects can they start at home? Whether you, yes, you’re a student, but there’s something you can do at home and contribute to your family as you’re contributing towards nature and still, on this farm, we get to connect. We learn and eventually lead. So you find that these young people have opportunities to also participate in global challenges, for instance, storytelling. And this child is giving all this young person is writing a story about conservation, depending on the experiences they have had. So my dream is more of a, we’re having a place as Irene, that’s where we’re situated, but we’re bringing in different young people from different backgrounds. How can we exchange ideas? And this is practical work so that we change the world into a greater place.

Morag: Wow, fantastic. Where would you have that farm, do you think? Do you have some land already or would you need to find, where could you find land?

Irene: Actually, I haven’t got the land. That’s really still my dream but I’m making all means possible in order to move this dream and I want it to be, it’s a village, probably within Wakiso district or the nearby district whereby different people can easily come and easily reach out. And we also get to know communities outside there and how we can work along with them.

Morag: Yeah, I can imagine too. The possibilities of having school groups visit and all different sorts of people coming out and learning, that’s fantastic. You know, and I think you’re absolutely right. Having more really good examples of how things can work well, is possibly one of the most powerful things that we can do and giving people opportunities to get their hands dirty for one of a better word, you know, to get their hands in and have a go and to feel the difference, to know the difference, to see the difference to taste the difference. I wonder too, whether there’s something about different sorts of cooking or anything else as well that, you know, cause people love food, don’t they? So there’s some way of changing the way that you think about food particularly in thinking about permaculture diversity, what are the main foods that people eat on a daily basis in your area? And is there a need to diversify that?

Irene: Oh, well, that’s a serious athough. I love food. I, I, and, um, one thing, uh, realized, uh, people what the more into, uh, Porsche, right? My [inaudible]. So these, these are the foods that people eat on a daily basis. And when it comes to definitely beans. And, um, as I was making my research, different people, you find that I’m not into vegetables a lot, and I believe this is a great supplement every meal. So you find that, um, if someone purchases rice, it seems to that Aus beans, uh, talked, uh, when it comes to pushy store, people feel like it’s done, but remember we need to supplement these foods. It’s not like something you have to depend on, on a daily basis because this foods are the same food to your findings. I imagine each child from school, you’ve been eating beans for sure. Right? You come back home. It’s the same process. It’s a very challenging, but I feel like we can improve our needs. We can diversify our meals, uh, may supplementing something like vegetables. Things could move wonderful, I guess,

Morag: Yeah, because all of those extra nutrients are what helps people to grow and to learn and to become strong and healthier and less affected by disease and all of those things. And malnutrition is, you know, there’s, it’s not just the lack of food. It’s the lack of nutrients, isn’t it as well.

Irene: And it’s silent. People don’t know that they are fasting, malnourishment in one or the other, it’s something that’s really hidden, by the time we realize it, it’s at times too late.

Morag: Yeah, that’s right. Oh gosh. Well, there’s so many different things. I’m so glad to have had this chance to talk with you. I really wish you all the best in your year as a Kofi Annan Changemaker. And with all of the programs with the children, I really hope we are able to stay in touch and talk more about our programs because we do similar things, but just in different parts of the world.

Irene: Yes. I believe it would be a great opportunity. Like learning never stops connecting with your group, connecting with the people you work with, just like one gentleman who reached out, I got my contact from you. So I believe that would be a great opportunity connecting with more people and we’ll see how to make our world a better place.

Morag: Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for taking the time. Irene. I wish you all the best and enjoy the rest of your day.

Irene: Thank you so much.

Morag: That’s all for today. Thanks so much for joining me. If you like a copy of my top 10 books to read, click the link below, pop in your email and I’ll send it straight to you. You can also watch this interview over on my YouTube channel. I’ll put the link below as well, and don’t forget to subscribe, leave a comment. And if you’ve enjoyed it, please consider giving me a star rating. Believe it or not, the more people do this. The more podcasts bots will discover this little podcast. So thanks again. And I’ll see you again next week.