I am delighted to chat with internationally recognised thought leader, Looby Macnamara.
Looby is a permaculture teacher, social permaculture facilitator & cofounder of Applewood Permaculture Centre in Herefordshire, England, with her partner Chris Evans (founder of the Himalayan Permaculture Centre).
Download this list of 10 of Morag’s favourite books.
Morag’s 4 part introduction to permaculture video series.
Looby has authored 3 permaculture books: Cultural Emergence: A toolkit for transforming ourselves and the world (2020), People and Permaculture: Designing personal, collective and planetary wellbeing (2012) and 7 Ways to Think Differently: Embrace Potential, respond to life, discover abundance (2014).
In this conversation, Looby & I talk about her work with cultural emergence & ways to create real livelihoods with permaculture. The late, Polly Higgins, who wrote the forward to People and Permaculture, said ‘permaculture is the biggest job creation scheme in the world’!
Cultural Emergence is framework & toolkit that Looby is offering to enable us to design the world we want to live in – informed by indigenous wisdom, permaculture design and systems thinking. Looby launched her book just this month at the National Permaculture Convergence, UK & it will be available in November 2020.
I was excited to sit down in Looby’s garden with her in pre-covid times. Unfortunately my voice left me that day so please excuse the huskiness and listen instead to Looby who’s voice is clear, like her clear leadership in the social dimensions in the world of permaculture education.
Watch the video now:
Download and stream the Podcast here.
Read the full transcript here:
Morag Gamble: Welcome to the Sense-making in a Changing World Podcast, where we explore the kind of thinking we need to navigate a positive way forward. I’m your host Morag Gamble.. Permaculture Educator, and Global Ambassador, Filmmaker, Eco villager, Food Forester, Mother, Practivist and all around lover of thinking, communicating and acting regeneratively. For a long time it’s been clear to me that to shift trajectory to a thriving one planet way of life we first need to shift our thinking, the way we perceive ourselves in relation to nature, self, and community is the core. So this is true now more than ever. And even the way change is changing, is changing. Unprecedented changes are happening all around us at a rapid pace. So how do we make sense of this? To know which way to turn, to know what action to focus on? So our efforts are worthwile and nourishing and are working towards resilience, regeneration, and reconnection. What better way to make sense than to join together with others in open generative conversation..
Morag: In this podcast, I’ll share conversations with my friends and colleagues, people who inspire and challenge me in their ways of thinking, connecting and acting. These wonderful people are thinkers, doers, activists, scholars, writers, leaders, farmers, educators, people whose work informs permaculture and spark the imagination of what a post-COVID, climate-resilient, socially just future could look like. Their ideas and projects help us to make sense in this changing world to compost and digest the ideas and to nurture the fertile ground for new ideas, connections and actions. Together we’ll open up conversations in the world of permaculture design, regenerative thinking community action, earth repair, eco-literacy, and much more. I can’t wait to share these conversations with you.
Morag Gamble: I always returned to the practical and positive world of permaculture with its ethics of earth care, people care and fair share. I’ve seen firsthand how adaptable and responsive it can be in all contexts from urban to rural, from refugee camps to suburbs. It helps people make sense of what’s happening around them and to learn accessible design tools, to shape their habitat positively and to contribute to cultural and ecological regeneration. This is why I’ve created the Permaculture Educators Program to help thousands of people to become permaculture teachers everywhere through an interactive online dual certificate of permaculture design and teaching. We sponsor global Permayouth programs, women’s self help groups in the global South and teens in refugee camps. So anyway, this podcast is sponsored by the Permaculture Education Institute and our Permaculture Educators Program. IIf you’d like to find more about permaculture, I’ve created a four-part permaculture video series to explain what permaculture is and also how you can make it your livelihood as well as your way of life.
Morag: We’d love to invite you to join a wonderfully inspiring, friendly, and supportive global learning community. So I welcome you to share each of these conversations, and I’d also like to suggest you create a local conversation circle to explore the ideas shared in each show and discuss together how this makes sense in your local community and environment. I’d like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which I meet and speak with you today, The Gubbi Gubbi people and pay my respects to their elders past, present and emerging. Today, I’m delighted to welcome to the Sense-making in a Changing World show, internationally recognized permaculture teacher Looby Macnamara. Looby is the founder of Applewood Permaculture Centre in Herefordshire, England with her partner, Chris Evans, who also set up the Himalayan Permaculture Centre in Nepal. So Looby is the author of three permaculture books, each offering radical new perspectives. In 2012, she released, People and Permaculture – caring and designing for ourselves, each other, and the planet, which launched the conversations around the social dimensions of permaculture. And in 2014, she released 7 Ways to Think Differently. A wonderful little book that I absolutely love, including different types of thinking like abundance thinking, systems thinking, thinking in nature, cooperative thinking and more, and how these relate to permaculture. And just this year, she’s released Cultural Emergence – a toolkit for creating regenerative change. In this conversation. I talk with Looby about her work with social permaculture and cultural emergence. The vision of cultural emergence is to accelerate global cultural transformation towards a peaceful connected world for positive regenerative future. After knowing of each other’s work for a long time, it was really wonderful to sit down in Looby’s garden last year, while I was on a pre-COVID journey to the UK. Unfortunately, my voice had left me the day that we were doing the interview. So please do excuse my huskiness and listen, instead to Looby, whose voice is clear, like her clear role in the social dimensions of the world of permaculture education. I hope you enjoy this conversation.
Morag Gamble: So, I’m in Looby’s house. We’re about to do an interview. I don’t have any voice, but I’ll do my best. Hi, it’s Morag Gamble from Our Permaculture Life and Permaculture Education Institute and I’m very sorry about my voice, but I’m here today with Looby Macnamara and she has a voice. I’ll try not to speak very much and hand over to Looby. And I’ve been watching Looby’s work for a long time. So Looby’s here in England. I’m based in Australia and I love the work that she does. I’m so delighted to be here to hear a little bit about how she got into permaculture teaching cause it’s really very exciting. So thanks for taking the time.
Looby Macnamara: Yeah, lovely to meet you. Welcome to Applewood Permaculture Centre which is my home with Chris which you’ll meet later and yeah, it’s great to have you here and see more permaculture.
Morag Gamble: Nice. So you’ve been here at Applewood Permaculture Centre for a couple of years now.
Looby Macnamara: Yeah. Nearly three years. And we were lucky enough to move into a place where we were, it was kind of ready to go with courses. The first week after we moved in we held our first ever cultural emergence course globally.
Morag Gamble: Fantastic! So you run permaculture courses and cultural emergence courses here all throughout the year.
Looby Macnamara: Yeah. And teach training courses as well. So a real diversity of courses and we’re always pushing edges and exploring new things here.
Morag Gamble: So that’s exciting cause my focus too is around teaching permaculture teachers. So really excited to talk to you because you’ve been, you’ve written books about this one here, People and Permaculture. It’s been rereleased, which is a fantastic book that focuses on really it’s kind of like social permaculture side, isn’t it. And pushing the boundaries of what permaculture is about. And I love this book as well. This one. 7 Ways To Think Differently So those of you who do my course, you would have seen me referencing these books and this is Looby. This one I haven’t seen. Can you tell us what this one is?
Looby Macnamara: This is a poetry collection based loosely around the work that we connect spiral as well. I need to explore that tonight.
Morag Gamble: Can you firstly, just tell me a little bit about how you got to permaculture
Looby Macnamara: Yeah. So permaculture, when I first came to permaculture, I hadn’t really an idea of what it was like. It was just, people were talking about excitedly around me and then I went on a course and I went on a course while I was doing my finals of my university degree which was human sciences, it was lots of different bits of different things. And then permaculture came in and it was like this thread that tied loads of things together. And also the thing really excited me and really kind of lit my fire was the way it was taught and the way we were really invited to be this collaborative learning group who could find the answers together and who could explore things and have fun and be creative. And that was quite a contrast to my university degree in mainstream education. So I was really inspired to be in that learning culture again, that learning environment. And that was really what inspired me much more in there even than the content at the time, which I didn’t necessarily have the space to kind of integrate all the content I was learning in my life. But the, the way it was taught just grabbed me and said, this is what you want to do.
Morag Gamble: It’s hard because I think it is, isn’t it it’s about feeling connected to something like it’s connected to global movement opening up and feeding each curiosity. And like you said, giving space to have fun, to be creative with it, rather than just kind of putting another skill and other information, pretty much an approach that feeds and nourishes you as well as giving you practical skills.
Looby Macnamara: Exactly. And that whole community and the wider community of movements and the community of the course and how that fitted in to wider movement of permaculture was really inspiring. And I just came alive in a way during that course that I hadn’t been alive in mainstream education. And then at the end of the course, we were invited to do it, to dream big and to share our long term goals and visions and to not think about what you, it wasn’t like project planning, what do you really want to do? And how are you going to get there? It was just like this expansive, like What could you do? What would you really like to do with your life? Yeah your imagination? I did this what if? Wouldn’t it be great to teach permaculture? Cause I was having so much fun and it was like, wouldn’t it be fun to just be in this kind of learning environment all the time. And just from having voiced that out loud, it was like the universe went okay and you know, and just laid down these kind of laid steps for me that just opened up my pathway to becoming a permaculture teacher.
Morag Gamble: I think there’s something really powerful about that intention. That what if imagining things into, into being independent reality, like if you hadn’t have said that it may well have not ever come about what it might have just been still floating around the air just waiting..
Looby Macnamara: Exactly, exactly. And it was just this inviting in what I really wanted. And that was really powerful not to get caught up in whether it was feasible or whether it was a good idea or whether, you know, it was going to be the right career choice for me or anything like that. It was just like, what would I really want? And you know, I love it nowadays. And I kind of looked back where you know, around the fire pit here obviously in the day we haven’t got the fire going, but I just love the fact that when I was a child, I would go and kind of go sit around the fire and sing and that was all real time that I came alive as a kid. And now as an adult, I get to do courses and as part of it we have fires in the evening and we’re, as you say, that whole person approach and that whole community approach adds well to courses. So whatever the style of whatever the content of the course is where we are creating this, what we like to call it in cultural emergencies, culture, collective intelligence, and just really inviting that actually what we know and can contribute to this regenerative culture together is far greater than any of us can do individually.
Morag Gamble: That’s fantastic. So is that how you would define cultural emergence?
Looby Macnamara: Well so culture emergence is this opportunity to emerge a new culture and to have this fertile cultural emergence. So there’s so many kind of turning points that happen that can kind of end up with this destructive cultural emergence, which ends up in war or arguments on a smaller scale or apathy or disillusion. And what we want is that fertile cultural emergence, where we’re invited to shine our gifts. We’re invited to bring our creativity, our imagination, our commitment, our passions, our skills, and invited to put all of that into the mix and emerge more of that. So that it’s really this ongoing process into integrating these regenerative cultures. And breaking down this regenerative culture. What does that actually mean to us? And it’s like, well, how is it this culture, personal leadership? So we take responsibility. How do we create this culture of collective intelligence and responsibility as well? So we really invited to what happens between us is much more powerful. And it’s like this collective genius that can come through. And then the third aspect of it is this culture of planetary care. And when we’ve got those three happening at once, well, that’s really potent. You know, when we’ve got this personal leadership, collective intelligence and planetary care, that’s what we need on the planet at the moment, if we can create those cultures. So with cultural emergence, it’s not saying this is the blueprint of the culture we want. This is where we’re going. It’s not doing that. It’s saying that there’s this ongoing process is ongoing conversation. There’s ongoing development that needs to happen for us as humanity, as individuals, as communities. And that when we get that as those three things happening, then we really accelerate into this regenerative culture.
Morag Gamble: What I love about it is from hearing you speak is that it’s about being in it being really present. It’s not about working towards something. It’s not like an end point, it’s a process. It’s always like you’re inviting people into imagining the future like that at a power moment like you’re creating the space to invite people into that point, because really until we allow ourselves to find that place, we’ll just still keep going on rationalize things and put things aside. Whereas this is very exciting. And so it started, when did you start doing culture emergence?
Looby Macnamara: Well? It’s interesting because the journey with cultural emergence and the journey with Applewood here kind of have happened simultaneously. As I said, this was the first course I did here. It started through collaboration with myself and Jon Young. And we’re looking at not only what was the overlap between his work with nature connection, village building and my work with personal and social permaculture and people permaculture. And it’s like, well, not only looking at what was the overlap, but what was that emergent space that we could grow into? What was that next big step in the evolution? And that’s kind of what I was looking for as well at that time, it’s like, okay, people permaculture been out in the world for while it had, you know, but really opened up the conversation within permaculture about what do we do? How do we use it for our own personal wellbeing? How do we use it in groups? What’s the bigger picture of what we want to do in permaculture. So I’d kind of opened up that conversation and then was really thinking what’s next, what’s the, how do we expand beyond permaculture as well? And there’s always been this question about permaculture being permanent culture. And that really is setting us up for a bit of failure though. Isn’t it, you know, cultures are never going to be permanent. They’re really dynamic. And so actually, how do we invite this emergency as well? So that we really start to shift our culture into this regenerative space. And as you say, it’s an ongoing process. And so we started to really kind of look at creating this toolkit and looking at, Jon has these core routines of nature connection. We were like, well, what would be the core routines of cultural emergence? And then permaculture, we love our principles, don’t we. So what are the principles of cultural emergence as well? So those are just two parts of the toolkit and that really is really potent.
Morag Gamble: So for people listening, can you clearly articulate permaculutre, social permaculture, cultural emergence, just so that there’s a really clear definition there.
Looby Macnamara: Yes. I mean, there is this real continuum of all of them as well. So I mean, it’s a tricky one, isn’t it? So permaculture is about design. I would say it’s really clearly about design. It’s about shifting our thinking, which is why I called my second book seven ways to think differently. Cause it’s like when the shifts happen out in inside there, then they change. And whether it’s on the landscape or in relationships, it’s like the shifts start there and then they manifest differently..
Morag Gamble: When you see things differently, you can’t unsee can you. Most of the things that we need to change is about our perception and Fritjof Capra talks about all the crises that we have in the world being essentially a crisis of perception. That’s kind of the different ways of thinking.
Looby Macnamara: Yeah. So I would say that it’s also like the emergencies that we see at the moment on the planet are like this cultural emergencies they all stem, all these problems, we have social, ecological, our cultural problems. And so the problems are cultural, then making cultural shifts can shift the problems as well. And that’s sort of like looking at how do we really get deep down into what are the kind of the root causes and the paradigms that cause these problems. And so permaculture is really well known for being this land-based system and really focusing on earth care. And I think that’s partly because it’s you know, it’s tangible, it’s visible. I can say to you come and see our permaculture garden. It’s kind of a bit weird to say, come and see my permaculture relationship, but that isn’t to say that so many people have, you know, positive benefits from bringing permaculture into our relationships.
Morag Gamble: It’s a platform for those relationships to form.
Looby Macnamara: Yes. Yeah. And it’s so I would say that’s a kind of continuum from looking at permaculture in the sort of classic way it’s been currently used in terms of land-based and providing our very physical needs of water, shelter, food, and then energy, and then broadening out into our wellbeing needs as well. And so how do we do that in terms of, I say people permaculture, so personals and social. So how do I use permaculture for myself to really enhance my wellbeing, my emotional wellbeing through my thinking, my physical wellbeing through just observing my own body and in my own needs all the way to my spiritual wellbeing as well, and finding my purpose and feeling like I’m contributing to the world. So that’s all contained within personal permaculture and then social permaculture is what happens between us. So in our relationships, in our groups, then on bigger social systems as well. And I think this is where people in permaculture may be quite unique in terms of the permaculture literature of really taking it into our education systems. And our healthcare systems are looking at how we relate into generationally. And then how do we take that out globally and really feel connected globally and really you know, which is where the fair shares ethic really comes in as well as really critical. How do we pay attention to the fair shares ethic in terms of social permaculture people permaculture, and then moving it then out into the cultural emergence that’s where I’ve kind of expanded into and really looking at that, this question of, okay, if that is our belief that the problems are cultural, how do we really find cultural solutions there? And that’s also our personal culture as well. It’s not just culture being this big thing out here, but actually how do we use these tools to enhance my own personal culture, which will then ripple out into all the other conscious on the part of, so there is a continuum and I’m just edging out different tools in different places. And there’s overlaps and synergies that happen between them.
Morag Gamble: That’s right, as, you know, throw nested systems too, aren’t there. And I think the more you develop an understanding of it in a smaller scale system, it gives you an opportunity to really start to see how it can be of great relevance to any system of any scale. And I do talk about that in the in the original permaculture design courses, but is this you articulating what that means and how to use it?
Looby Macnamara: Yes. And just bringing in a lot of tools from Jon Young’s work of nature connection, and village building as well. So peacemaking and just really bringing more tools. And I it’s like emerging new things, it’s emerging new principles and it is providing this space. So when we have this course, it’s like we create this field of encouragement that allows this culture of personal leadership, that we are encouraged to step into our own personal leadership. We’re encouraged to have this collective intelligence that invites us to come up with solutions and to be imaginative and to throw something into the pot that can actually join with something else and just create something new. And so it’s really exciting dynamic causes that happen. And then the planetary care to really feel, how am I part of this bigger system that this locally in terms of the plants, I’m connected to the trees around me and part of this huge planet and this whole bigger ecosystem of life we’re part of, a small part of. So really connecting with ourselves as humanity is part of this web, and then how do we actually feel like we can, we got positive parts to play as well, that we, you know, humanity..
Morag Gamble: That’s what we want. We wanna feel that we can, we have so much to spare. And there is so much, I know depression, I think in a lot of people thinking, well, gosh, if you’ve done it, am I right. To have an opportunity to be in something that gives a sense of a possibility of something different or something that we can be part of and we can make a difference, I think is hugely powerful. For children as well.
Looby Macnamara: Definitely. Definitely. And this is what, you know, I’d like to, if I was going to give a sort of strapline for cultural emergence, I would say it was a message of hype and tools for empowerment. That’s the, like the two things there.
Morag Gamble: Now I want to ask you, cause I’ve just been in Totnes, chatting with Rob Hopkins and there’s the whole transition movement. So how do you see transition movement and cultural emergence weaving themselves together?
Looby Macnamara: Yeah, I think there’s conversations that have been had and can be had further. And I think the cultural emergence, it really looks at weaving a lot of things. So it’s like permaculture, links in eight shields. It links in transition, links in the work that reconnects. And it’s almost like looking at it as like this mycelium, right. And connecting all these things. And you know, when we look at the toolkit, a lot of them will, the tools might seem really familiar and it’s like coming into this really well organized tool, good tool shed with instructions saying there’s possibility of making all sorts of things with it as well. So it’s, I see that it’s kind of cross discipline in a way of just really connecting many things and that through those connections and through bringing in, again, it’s bringing in that collective intelligence that we, you know, a lot of groups being looking at different things and it’s like how do we look at that? Or the structure between those things and look at the connections between those things.
Morag Gamble: One other thing that I wanted to ask you, because it’s something that people ask me a lot too, is about how permaculture can be your way of life and your way of thinking and your livelihood. And so, I remember saying to people a long time ago, like I think in my entire life, I’ve had a real job for nine months. Maybe, the rest of the time has been permaculture, teaching permaculture, working permaculture-related community-based programs all over the place that’s been. So what about for you, do you take permaculture and apply it to your livelihood as well as your programs?
Looby Macnamara: Certainly, and I think this is another thing that people might think, Oh, I’ve got to use permaculture, I’ve got to leave my job and go into permaculture, but there’s also bringing permaculture into your jobs or into your business, whatever that is, you can benefit from using permaculture to be more effective, to bring the ethics alive within your business, to bring more balance within your business. So actually, you can bring permaculture in to your existing jobs, as well as finding opportunities that, where you can use permaculture. I mean, there’s so many things. Polly Higgins who wrote the foreword for People and Permaculture said n the foreword, Permaculture is like the biggest job opportunity scheme in the world. If we’re looking at opportunities and niches to be filled or on earh care, people care and fair share, there is endless opportunities for that. I mean, yes, we need to bring in more opportunities that are money through that, but they are there and it’s like again, it invites us to be entrepreneurial, and, and use our curiosity, use our creativity and, create platforms for ourselves to do that. And I know that there’s different circumstances and people might not have the privilege or the space to just kind of leave their job and find that. But so it’s building it slowly as well. So it might be that, you know, you keep your day job and then create small steps for yourself and build confidence and build those networks and opportunities for you to then find. So, I mean, I would say to anyone, there’s kind of like thinking, I want to create a livelihood myself with permaculture is just get designing, get the confidence up, so bring it into your life. And then when you start to make those shifts and got the skills and knowledge base on the designs behind you, then the opportunities will come to you. So you don’t need to, it’s not an all or nothing. It’s not a, “Oh, I can’t leave my job” and “Yeah, a permaculture full time job today so I won’t do anything until that possibility is there”. So actually create that possibility by doing what you can here and now.
Morag Gamble: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for spending the time today. I can see the sun is about to.. down below the barn here at Applewood Permaculture Center. I just want to thank you again for spending the time and sharing that because, it’s such a huge field. It’s like this big sort of big ceiling and opening to explore a whole different way of thinking around permaculture. And like I said, building relationships between all of those different things that are happening in this space, which is really exciting. As you’re talking about it you’re eyes are twinkling, I just love that. It’s a true sense of possibility and amazing potential. Thank you for doing the work that you do.
Looby Macnamara: Oh, thank you so much. It’s really lovely to meet you and to feel that enthusiasm for the people permaculture and for cultural emergence. And I’d just like to share with everyone that, we are, I’m just, just about to launch, like literally tomorrow, our cultural emergence online taster course. So we’ll put the link here for you and it is a free or pay as you wish, if you want to donate something to contribute to the ongoing development. But also if you just want to join it and find out a bit more about it, then please do join that.
Morag Gamble: I’ll put that link below and also all the links to the books, to the Applewood Permaculture Center, and also to Looby’s website, which is loobymacnamara.com. Thank you so much.
Looby Macnamara: Thank you.
Morag Gamble: Thanks for tuning in to the sense-making in a changing world podcast today, it’s been a real pleasure to have your company. I invite you to subscribe and receive notification of each new weekly episode with more wonderful stories, ideas, inspiration, and common sense for living and working regeneratively and core positive permaculture thinking of design interaction in this changing world. I’m including a transcript below and a link also to my four-part permaculture series, really looking at what is permaculture and how to make it your livelihood, too. So, join me again in the next episode where we talk with another fascinating guest, I look forward to seeing you there.
Would you like to teach permaculture?
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Join a global network of [pr]activists addressing the interconnected crises humanity (actually, all life) is facing today. The Permaculture Educators Program joins people together on 6 continents – from Nambucca to Nepal, Sikkim to Spain, California to Kakuma refugee settlement.
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Thanks for tuning into Sense-making in a Changing World today. It has been a pleasure to have your company. I invite you to subscribe (via your favourite podcast app like iTunes) and receive notification of each new weekly episode.
Each Wednesday I will share more wonderful stories, ideas, inspiration, and common sense for living and working regeneratively. Positive permaculture thinking, design, and action are so needed in this changing world.
What is permaculture?
Take a look at my free 4 part permaculture series or Our Permaculture Life Youtube and my permaculture blog too. For an introduction to permaculture online course, I recommend The Incredible Edible Garden course. I also offer an online Permaculture Educators Program (Permaculture Design Certificate and Permaculture Teacher Certificate) and involve young people in permaculture through Permayouth (11-16yos).
Warm regards,
Morag Gamble
Founder, Permaculture Education Institute
I acknowledge the Traditional owners of the land from which I am broadcasting, the Gubbi Gubbi people, and pay my respects to their elders past, present, and emerging.
Thank you Rhiannon Gamble for audio editing – a challenging task this week with poor connection
Thank you to Kim Kirkman (Harp) and Mick Thatcher (Guitar) for donating this piece from their album Spirit Rider.