What is marine permaculture, how does it relate to land-based permaculture and how can it help to reverse climate change and restore marine ecosystems?
Find out in this special permaculture masterclass. I have the great pleasure of a great conversation with the creator of marine permaculture and founder of the Climate Foundation, Dr Brian Von Herzen . Brian also offers a 30 minute presentation giving the detailed background to Marine Permaculture.
I am delighted that Brian is one of the founding members of the Permaculture Education Institute . The Institute offers comprehensive Permaculture Educators Program that includes the only place in the world you can do both a Permaculture Design Certificate and a Permaculture Teacher Certificate online, and connects members with an amazing learning community on 6 continents.
Watch the Marine Permaculture Masterclass
Click the image below to watch the full Masterclass with Morag Gamble and Dr Brian Von Herzen. (1hr 20 mins)
Marine Permaculture in 2040
Marine Permaculture is featured in the film 2040: The Regeneration by Damon Gameau.
It is featured also in the accompanying book 2040: A Handbook for Regeneration . Here’s an excerpt from the film.
Marine Permaculture for Schools
Cool Australia has also collaborated to make a marine permaculture school worksheet for grade 7-8s.
Tasmania – the first marine permaculture array coming in 2020
The Intrepid Foundation has helped raise money the first marine permaculture array to be set up off the coast of Tasmania in 2020. Click here to find out more.
Marine Permaculture and Drawdown
Paul Hawken featured marine permaculture too in his wonderful book Drawdown: The Most Comprehensive Plan Ever Proposed to Roll Back Global Warming
Our beloved Australian science writer, presenter (and geek), Dr Karl, interviewed Brian at Woodford Festival in 2017. Click on the image below to play this podcast with Brian and Dr Karl recorded at Woodford Folk Festival in 2017.
I am really very excited about the potential of marine permaculture and Brian is just such an inspiration. He is dedicating his life to this as a practical and positive response to the climate and ecological emergencies, and the immediate needs of many peoples that depend directly on the oceans for their daily survival and well-being.
Brian joins me for my free permaculture masterclass #20 via Zoom from Woods Hole Massachusetts which went live on November 25, 2019. We share a conversation and a presentation . These masterclasses are always sponsored by the Permaculture Education Institute
The recording includes a fascinating extended conversation about Marine Permaculture and it was a chance to ask questions directly to Brian.
TRANSCRIPT OF LIVE Q&A WITH DR BRIAN VON HERZEN
Online Masterclass #20: Marine Permaculture 25 November 2019
with Morag Gamble, Permaculture Education Institute and Dr Brian Von Herzen, Climate Foundation
Q. Alison
Because you are able to circulate cool water, does that mean you can still plant the same species of seaweed that has been growing there, rather than changing to seaweed that is more tolerable of warmer oceans?
A. Dr Brian Von Herzen
Alison, we find multiple local species can have a larger thermal tolerance, even different genotypes within the same species. The warm adapted varieties we are working with now in Tasmania, for example.
Q. Robert
I am studying the incorporation of a variety of kelps into mussel aquaculture in New Zealand. Do you see potential for establishing large-scale multi-trophic kelp-shellfish forests in the open ocean.
A. Dr Brian Von Herzen
Robert, we see strong potential for large-scale multi-trophic kelp and fish. In regions where the microalgae plankton can be brought high enough, shellfish like mussels could thrive as well.
Q. Andrew
I imagine in places such as Bali, plastic is a major problematic threat to growing seaweed ?
A. Dr Brian Von Herzen
Thank you for the question, Andrew. I have seen plastic strongly affect the health of coral reefs and sea grasses. It can also have an affect on seaweed and kelp forests. A bigger issue may be the lack of fish that ensure ecosystem balance. We hope that we can regenerate enough fish to restore balance to the kelp forest. While the plastic problem is big, the lack of fish (and forest) we feel may be an even greater threat.
Q. Claudia
Hi Brian, Claudia from the Blue Mountains. I have a question. I’ve been working with Kelp tidal litter sourced from Sydney beaches for the past 4 years. We found in the ICP analysis high content of Arsenic in the tissue. What’s your insight on seaweed bioacumulation of toxic metals from urban runoff and how to minimize their potential as hazardous additive for soils
A. Dr Brian Von Herzen
Claudia, most of the arsenic you are measuring is likely organic As, which is 500 times less toxic than inorganic. In addition, seaweed buffers As action and thus much of it is well tolerated. Finally, there is a hormetic effect observed in which small amounts of As actually has been shown to increase health in mouse models.
Q. Mandy
We are in the Mediterranean (Perma Med, Mallorca) – where there is sea grass – Posidonia oceanica-which grows slowly but also can draw down carbon. Posidonia oceanica are also stressed by climate change. Have you looked at sea grass options?
A. Dr Brian Von Herzen
Mandy, seagrasses are great. We are working on Nantucket with seagrasses right now. And we hope to find partners to work with to bring Marine Permaculture to the Mediterranean as soon as possible.
Q. Jane Wegesa Fraser
In Kenya lake victoria, Water hyacinth invades Lake Victoria with no end in sight. The weed prevents sunlight from reaching other aquatic species and creates thickets too dense for fishing boats to travel through. what is the best option to handle this situation where the lake is being chocked completely??
A. Dr Brian Von Herzen
Jane, we have used floating freshwater ferns like Azolla to bring the nutrient levels down and reduce the effect of water Hyacinth. The Azolla needs to be harvested regularly, and fed to livestock and used as mulch and compost. As long as the tools are available for regular harvesting, the Azolla is a very powerful way to absorb excess nutrients and produce a green fertilizer and animal feed. Chickens eating Azolla will have long-chain Omega-3 eggs with EPA and DHA so important for cognitive healthspan for much of the global population.
Q. Jane Wegesa Fraser
Can permaculture be achieved in fresh water Lake? can i get insight how?
A. Dr Brian Von Herzen
Jane, yes, we believe it is possible with a balance of freshwater plants and fish and sustainable harvesting. Keep in mind that Azolla doubles its mass in 3 days, so it is important to have some small harvesting boats and equipment in place before this is done on a large scale,
Q. Alison
Is that red seaweed the type that helps to drastically reduce the methane output of cattle?
A. Dr Brian Von Herzen
Alison, while the Asparagopsis genus has been identified to have some of the most potent methanogenic reduction, other seaweeds have strong benefits and may be less costly to produce.
Q. Robert
Hi Brian is the MPA Phase 4 System anchored to the ocean floor? If so, how is this done at a depth of 500 m?
A. Dr Brian Von Herzen
Robert, ultimately the MPA Phase 4 system will be self-guided. That means that the system does not need to be moored on the seafloor, but can actual sail on the vertical shear of mesoscale eddies, much like a kite surfer but underwater.
Q. Kathryn
Forgive me if this is a stupid question, I’m an ethics student and have been fascinated with the moral and ethical conflicts of geoengineering. What I love about Permaculture is that it’s almost fail proof – like what is the worst that can happen? Is this something that is already really regulated and is it up to the individual countries to allow this? What is the governmental response and what is the consequences on future generations. Noting that one of the challenges of geoenginnering (or some other types) is that we could be committing our kids and grandkids to continue to do it but also pay for it.
A. Dr Brian Von Herzen
Kathryn, thank you for your question. By having Nature as our guide, we can ensure that healthy kelp forests can be sustaining life in the seas and in our soils will continue for generations to come. By enabling Nature to continue her work in fixing carbon, we can ensure healthy ecosystems and a planet with balanced carbon.
Q. Veronique
Dr Brian Von Herzen: any human food application of seaweed other than for gourmet tasting dishes?
A. Dr Brian Von Herzen
Veronique, yes, seaweed is a great side dish. Kelp salsa is my favorite so far!
Q. Mandy
Have you explored possible marina mammal entanglement issues in your designs?
A. Dr Brian Von Herzen
Mandy, thank you for your question. We are working to refine systems that will actually benefit marine mammals. They are attracted to kelp forests and will be attracted to our kelp forests on marine permacultures as well.
Q. Jane Wegesa Fraser
what kind of nutrients do fire the growth of water Hyacinth?
A. Dr Brian Von Herzen
Jane, nitrate and some phosphate would be the macronutrients. Those are usually limiting. Much farm runoff will have a lot of nitrate.
Q. Edith Uhia
Natural Upwelling is crucial for Galician “Rías” richness in plancton, fish and shelfish. Due global warming the upwelling is being more erratic and small phenomenom. I’m so inspired with your work and I actually can see that it is something to try here in Galician coast (NW Spain)
A. Dr Brian Von Herzen
Edith Uhía, we would love to help Galician efforts to restore steady upwelling in your region! Please get in touch with us at info@climateFoundation.org and let’s identify approaches on how to develop offshore projects in your area
Q. Andrew
Not sure about dairy, but certainly beef is not really that sustainable, considering the size of land required to feed a cow… not to mention methane. Food from the sea seems like a smart alternative.
A. Dr Brian Von Herzen
Andrew, you are correct, food from the sea is probably the most sustainable. But we live in a world where people will probably still be eating beef in 2030. And many people love cheese and dairy. With one part seaweed and two parts rotational grazing and soil management, we hope to achieve carbon-negative dairy in the new decade to come. Less meat and less dairy is a good idea. The remainder can go carbon negative and the seaweed can be part of the answer.
Q. Veronique
Is the approach sustainable in time or are we depleting our deep seas of nutrients in the long terms?
A. Dr Brian Von Herzen
Veronique, Prof. Andrew Thompson in Environmental Studies at Caltech has confirmed that the deep water and nutrients are a renewable resource. Each winter more deep cool water is produced off the shores of Antarctica, and that is not about to be decreased any time soon.
Q. Sarah
Is there a point where you see your system or something similar being used to support fishing industry? I don’t have much knowledge of or experience with marine systems, but i imagine it could be adapted to multiple species ,eg, oysters or those sardines you mentioned…. id also like to know if you think this is something the fishing industry could affordably adapt to make fishing more sustainable.
A. Dr Brian Von Herzen
Sarah, yes the sardine fisheries industry are looking forward to working with us.
Q. Sarah
What i mean is for breeding species that are endangered.
A. Dr Brian Von Herzen
Sarah, we would encourage local selective breeding to improve climate resilience for those species.
Q. Veronique
I work with Motor Neurone Disease patients. Some association to blue algae exposure has been determined. Any other algae that may not be of benefit?
A. Dr Brian Von Herzen
Veronique, nearly all the 14,000 macroalgae species are nontoxic. The cyanobacteria you may be mentioning are micro algae based.
Q. Cath
Apparently sales of azolla have been banned in the uk as it is considered highly invasive
A. Dr Brian Von Herzen
Cath, in some places Azolla has been restricted. If the Azolla is not sustainably harvested, it can go anoxic and rot, as with any biomass.
Q. Wendy
Is there a limit to the extent of ‘upwelling’ which can be done without further distorting the temperature gradients in the oceans in these areas? Will the displaced warm surface water then cool sufficiently as it is pushed deeper even though temperatures are increased overall?r
A. Dr Brian Von Herzen
Wendy Soares, Lockheed Martin has identified the amount of upwelling that can be done sustainably globally at approximately 140 tera-watts. That level of upwelling will be difficult to achieve in our lifetimes. We have confirmed that Antarctic cold bottom-water formation is assured for millennia to come
Q. Aaron
Hey! Aaron from The Living Classroom here, are there other aquatic companion plants that can be interplanted with the kelp to absorb by-products and increase growth?
A. Dr Brian Von Herzen
Aaron, there are many epiphytes that grow all on their own in the kelp forest.
Q. Django
Hi Brian, it greats to see the media attention on your work and nice inclusion in 2040, I remember coming across one of your early papers on Marine Permaculture Arrays quite a few years ago now. I have so many questions on implementation of this technology. I work in the enviro/marine freshwater sciences in far south coast NSW. I’m just wondering if you had any thoughts on how to engage the permaculture community directly in Australia and/or citizen science? And, how this could accelerate knowledge on localised conditions and appropriate species selection? cheers,
A. Dr Brian Von Herzen
Django Van tholen, thank you. we are looking forward to working with the global permaculture community to regenerate our seas as well as our soils.
Q. Robert
Here On the East coast ofNew Zealand we have a great opportunity with cooler water lacking significant thermokline, AND the very deep Kermadec trench providing opportunities for deepwater carbon sequestration. Our research project is developing Macrocystis and Ecklonia Hatcheries for transplant to both inshore and offshore mussel aquaculture farms. I would be very interested to build upon our capacity and experience through cooperation with your and the University of Tasmania’s work.
A. Dr Brian Von Herzen
Robert, so glad to hear of your hatcheries! we would love to be in touch on this an for the mussel farms. We would be happy to collaborate further. info@climateFoundation.org
Q. Jane Wegesa Fraser
Therefore floating vetiver grass on pontoons to remove nutrients from polluted ponds and lakes can reduce water hyacinth? https://vetivernetinternational.blogspot.com/2008/12/water-clean-floating-vetiver-grown-on.html
A. Dr Brian Von Herzen
Jane, I would like to understand those grasses better, but many species can provide sustainable drawdown of macro nutrients from the lakes, resulting in clearer water.
we would be happy to read more information on Vetiver grass if you have more information you can send to us at info@climateFoundation.org
Q. Sarah
I’d love to know more about the freshwater versions of this.
A. Dr Brian Von Herzen
Sarah, please check the Azolla comments above and the Azolla slides- we are doing some tests near lake Tahoe.
Q. Mandy
We have a Marine Permaculture Program on Mallorca and be interested in connecting with your work team.
A. Dr Brian Von Herzen
Mandy, we would love to connect. Please email us on info@climateFoundation.org as a start
Q. Veronique
Thank you Brian. This is all great news and many solutions. Surely this would the reason to justify a large number of funding grant!!
Q. Claudia
Brian, have a published book on Marine Permaculture?
A. Dr Brian Von Herzen
Claudia, we are now beginning to work on a book, we have some material from the Santa Barbara Workshop in May 2019. The lecture and morning workshop are on youTube, search Santa Barbara Marine Permaculture and my name.
Q. Steph
@Claudia in the meantime I highly recommend Sunlight and Seaweed by Prof Tim Flannery!
Dr Brian Von Herzen
Steph, thanks for that, we are mentioned on page 122 of that book
Q. Jane Wegesa Fraser
Dr. Brian, I will be glad to connect for further interactions. I will email you.
A. Dr Brian Von Herzen
Jane, thank you, happy to connect
Q. Andrew
Dr Brian and Morag – great stuff , a lot of information to take on board. We have azolla growing in bathtubs in our Community garden. Never knew you could feed it to the chooks ! Thanks very much !
Q. Alison
Will there be volunteering/citizen science opportunities for the project down in Tasmania, or other areas in Australia? I am permaculture trained..
Q. Edith
Amazing Masterclass and chat!!! Thank you so much!!! My brain is “boiling” now with so much interesting and useful information!!!
Q. Jane Wegesa Fraser
hope we can do something here in the ocean and fresh water lakes…
Q. Steph
Any ongoing projects currently in Indonesia?
A. Dr Brian Von Herzen
Steph, we did a BEC demo last year and have plans for 2 more site surveys in INDO in April!
Q. Mandy
We also work with tribes in Alaska and would be interested for collaborating there too. Thanks for this opportunity Dr Brian and Morag.
A. Dr Brian Von Herzen
Mandy, the Alaskan seaweeds are amazing. There are stories of people surviving in regions of Alaska for months on nothing but seaweed!
Q. Claudia
Thanks Morag and Brian. It has been very informative and inspiring
Q. Alison
So so so exciting!!! Brilliant! Thankyou!
Q. Lauren
Thanks Morag & Brian 🙂 Fascinating and inspiring stuff 🙂
Q. Kerry
Thankyou for such a wonderful session. So interesting and inspiring
Q. Louise
how many types of seaweed are there and which are best and are any detrimental?
A. Dr Brian Von Herzen
Louise, there are 14000 species of macroalgae seaweed identified and practically all of them are nontoxic. There are times and places where our climate disruption causes imbalance, resulting in temporarily too much seaweed in places but we hope to solve that very soon now with increased seaweed markets
Q. Liz
Very inspiring! be great to apply to the Gippsland Lakes. I wonder what the relationship might be between that huge warming around Tasmania and dramatic increase in fires.
Q. Jacinta
Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge, so insightful and inspiring!
Q. Robert
In addition to making contact with the climate foundation and Morag’s permaculture education;It would be good to maintain a link to all the webinar participants Perhaps through a Facebook page or via twitter. Would this be possible Morag?
Q. Morag
Robert. Great idea. Brian and I will chat to see what we can do.
Q. Alison
Wondering about volunteering/WWOOFing opportunities re the Tasmanian project, to learn about Marine Permaculture and be able to support the projects? Maybe that will become clearer as the project happens?
A. Dr Brian Von Herzen
Alison, happy to explore volunteering, please contact volunteer@climatefoundation.org . We have been exploring how we can engage in the WWOOFing community as well. Find out more: http://www.climatefoundation.org/your-help.html